(5.5) Nut flush draw - should I continue?

[grayhawk]

Poker Rewards 5 + .50 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t40 (8 handed)

Reads - table has been aggressive. Villain has been tight, winning one hand that he raised preflop and bet the flop.

Hero (t3100)
Villain (t1050)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
1 fold, Hero calls (t40), 1 fold, <font color="red">Villain raises (t200)</font>, 4 folds, Hero calls (t160)

Flop: (t460) Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif, K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="red">Villain bets (t240)</font>, HERO?

bets the flop

[DaveKForty7]

Fold preflop.

[jb9]

Folds or raises to 851.

[durron597]

fold preflop, checkraise allin flop

[Jedi Flopper]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, checkraise allin flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[grayhawk]

Thanks for the replies. I would like to reserve my comments until a little later. Let's continue:

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
1 fold, Hero calls (t40), 1 fold, <font color="red">Villain raises (t200)</font>, 4 folds, Hero calls (t160)

Flop: (t460) Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif, K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="red">Villain bets (t240)</font>, Hero calls (t240)

Turn: (t940) 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="red">Villain bets all-in (t610)</font>, HERO?

[tigerite]

Well, call. You played it like a doofus. Congrats.

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, checkraise allin flop

[/ QUOTE ]

What does check-raising all-in on the flop accomplish here? About the only hand hero is behind (and he's behind almost anything villain could have here, I would think) that I can see folding is TT.

In any event, fold pre-flop (and don't limp marginal hands from upfront). If hero must play this hand, he should raise it pre-flop, too.

[jb9]

[ QUOTE ]
What does check-raising all-in on the flop accomplish here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gives you some chance of folding a better hand (TT, AJ, AQ) and if you are called it guarantees you (1) see the river, (2) win the most when you hit, and (3) eliminate an opponent when you hit.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does check-raising all-in on the flop accomplish here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gives you some chance of folding a better hand (TT, AJ, AQ) and if you are called it guarantees you (1) see the river, (2) win the most when you hit, and (3) eliminate an opponent when you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I buy a tight player having TT or AQ (much less AJ) here. Doesn't TT check behind on the flop, too?

Anyway, I don't think the chance of folding the occasional better hand is worth giving away chips to the more likely hands that you're well behind and will call the push.

[grayhawk]

Well, I think it's time to reveal the truth. I was actually the villain in this hand. I had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif and my opponent spiked the 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the river to take me out of the tournament. I felt that he made a clear error by calling my preflop raise, and that he made 2 additional errors calling my bets on the flop and river. I actually think my flop bet should have been larger to reduce his pot odds more in case he was drawing to a flush, which became a clear possibility to me after his flop call. I'm not sure I had any play on the turn except for an all-in. Any other bet and I am giving him pretty good odds or giving a free card which would have been a disaster.

Perhaps an all-in on the flop would have been the best move? I was a little concerned about him flopping 2 pair because I thought KQs, KJs, or QJs were potential holdings after he called my preflop raise.

[jb9]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I don't think the chance of folding the occasional better hand is worth giving away chips to the more likely hands that you're well behind and will call the push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If the only reason to check/raise all in was to fold better hands, then it is a bad move.

The real question (to my mind) is whether or not to draw for the nut flush/straight. And I can't answer that question with the info provided (because I don't know the other players' stack sizes, when the blinds increase, and the read on villain seems based on little information).

However, if you are going to draw, I like putting villain all in on the flop to make sure he can't fold when I make my hand.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I think it's time to reveal the truth. I was actually the villain in this hand. I had A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif and my opponent spiked the 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the river to take me out of the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah I was going to say.. makes sense now.

He's just a donk.. I'm afraid it happens in these things.

[DaveKForty7]

Aha that's right clever, I like it.

[grayhawk]

Now that you know that I am villain and my cards, any comments on my play? I am especially curious to know what folks would have done on the flop. Was my bet big enough? Should I have pushed? It may not have mattered, but I believe that I applied the Fundamental Theorem of Poker reasonably well on this hand. If that is the case, then losing the hand isn't that big of a deal to me.

[jb9]

[ QUOTE ]
Now that you know that I am villain and my cards, any comments on my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were willing to fold the flop to a reraise, then I like your flop bet.

If you were not willing to fold on the flop, then I would bet more (anywhere from 400 to all in).

Even though you are not giving immediate pot odds for the draws to call with your 1/2 pot bet, the draws have decent implied odds as the 240 chip call can win the pot + your 600 remaining chips.

I know if I were your opponent I wouldn't be thinking "240 chips ruins my pot odds for this draw" I would be thinking "how much can I win if I call this and hit my flush" (and as per my previous comments, I would be folding or putting you all in on the flop if I had the flush/gutshot draws...).

The way your hand played out, I like the turn push when the (likely) blank fell.

Someone please correct me if my thinking seems bad here.

I probably would have bet more on the flop (more like 2/3 rather than 1/2) because of all the drawing possibilities for villain, but it doesn't seems like you were betting this guy away from the pot anyway.

Tough break.

[grayhawk]

I would have been willing to fold to a re-raise because of the texture of the flop. With the 2 diamonds and 3 high cards and the fact that I raised preflop, if he was willing to raise me in that position, he is either a maniac or has 2 pair or better. I do agree that a larger bet would probably have been a better move. The sad thing is that this wasn't even close to the worst beat I had last night. I had pocket aces cracked heads up on the bubble by A7 offsuit with a 7 on the flop and a 7 on the river. Guess it was not my night.