You LRR me, so I CRR you back!

[Spicymoose]

UTG is unknown, but SB is 23/4/1.8 after 90 hands.

I never call reraise, but he made me want to, and I thought it was the perfect opportunity.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Thoughts?

Flush draw and a gutshot with 2 opponents is +Ev. Looks perfect to me. You can expect an UTG raise and you can rereaise for value, which you did. If it simply gets called through, that kind of sucks, but having 2 people come with when you're on a draw makes for better implied ods than raising immediately and only getting the SB to come along. I don't think you win without hitting your draw, so chasing UTG out at the flop doesn't really help.

[ihardlyknowher]

I would not 3-bet the flop because I want to keep UTG in the lead. If you hit your hand, you can then check-raise the field. The chance to get 2 extra BB with 95%+ equity is better than 2 extra SB with 56% equity IMO.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not 3-bet the flop because I want to keep UTG in the lead. If you hit your hand, you can then check-raise the field. The chance to get 2 extra BB with 95%+ equity is better than 2 extra SB with 56% equity IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think the turn ever gets checked through? Also, if I do check raise the turn in a protected pot, UTG may fold, and I might not get his BB. Furthermore, this disguises my hand, so I may induce extra action.

I am not sure if it is correct, but I sure liked it, and hope it is /images/graemlins/smile.gif

deleted

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I think the flop equity is so large that you're giving up too much. The hero has 12 outs, he's a 1.2:1 favorite to win by the river. By 3-betting the flop he's getting in an extra BB, of which the hero nets .833 given his odds of winning.

So, 3 betting the flop = +.83BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this is flawed.

You are giving hero 83% equity, which he doesn't have.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, I think the flop equity is so large that you're giving up too much. The hero has 12 outs, he's a 1.2:1 favorite to win by the river. By 3-betting the flop he's getting in an extra BB, of which the hero nets .833 given his odds of winning.

So, 3 betting the flop = +.83BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this is flawed.

You are giving hero 83% equity, which he doesn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Argh, yea, 1/1.2 = 83%, but it should be 1/2.2 = 45%.

Flop bet is still better EV depend on how you see the odds of a check through or 4-flush hurting you, but it's much closer.

I suck so I deleted my post.

[The Dude]

This line was very rewarding since you hit on the turn. But if you miss are you firing on the turn and river still?

Taking a step back from the hand specifics, I was looking at SSH and it pretty much religiously says push the pot any time it's +EV to do so. Given the hero has 12 outs, pushing the flop is definiately +EV.

The only reason to give up the flop +EV is if you can get an even better +EV on the turn. SSH drills this in with examples of waiting until the turn, but in his cases the reason you wait isn't to make your hand, but to see if the turn is a blank and check/raise a made hand.

Examples are waiting until the turn in a big pot and top pair, but a flush draw on the board. Wait until the turn to push if it's a blank becaus your equity is so much better.

Our hero is in the reverse situation, most of the cards cripple the hero's equity because most don't make his hand. In this case the hero needs to push at the flop because that's where his equity advantage is. Yes, it's true if the hero makes the turn cards his equity goes way up, but not enough to sacrifice his equity on the flop.

If UTG was going to bet 100% of the time and the SB would always call, AND a river 4-flush won't give the pot way, then it becomes pretty close. Those are big assumptions though and whatever portion of the time those don't hold up severely diminishes the equity of waiting until the turn to check/raise.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
This line was very rewarding since you hit on the turn. But if you miss are you firing on the turn and river still?

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. I have extremely little fold equity. I hope that UTG gets confused, or is drawing himself, and gives me a free card. If not, I have no problem calling with my close to 12 outs.

I love it, but you need to have the gutshot to make this right. Without the gutshot on the flop, I'd prefer to try to peel cheaply.

[ QUOTE ]
I love it, but you need to have the gutshot to make this right. Without the gutshot on the flop, I'd prefer to try to peel cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Even with just a flush draw, you'll make that slightly more than 33% of the time. Every raise on the flop is for value as long as you have at least 2 callers and helps tie people to the pot when you do hit.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not 3-bet the flop because I want to keep UTG in the lead. If you hit your hand, you can then check-raise the field. The chance to get 2 extra BB with 95%+ equity is better than 2 extra SB with 56% equity IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think the turn ever gets checked through? Also, if I do check raise the turn in a protected pot, UTG may fold, and I might not get his BB. Furthermore, this disguises my hand, so I may induce extra action.

I am not sure if it is correct, but I sure liked it, and hope it is /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn may get checked through, but you also may not hit your hand. Also, calling on the flop and check-raising the turn gives you more bluffing equity IMO (it looks like you slowplayed a monster).

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not 3-bet the flop because I want to keep UTG in the lead. If you hit your hand, you can then check-raise the field. The chance to get 2 extra BB with 95%+ equity is better than 2 extra SB with 56% equity IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think the turn ever gets checked through? Also, if I do check raise the turn in a protected pot, UTG may fold, and I might not get his BB. Furthermore, this disguises my hand, so I may induce extra action.

I am not sure if it is correct, but I sure liked it, and hope it is /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn may get checked through, but you also may not hit your hand. Also, calling on the flop and check-raising the turn gives you more bluffing equity IMO (it looks like you slowplayed a monster).

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously doubt I am winning this pot by having my opponents fold.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not 3-bet the flop because I want to keep UTG in the lead. If you hit your hand, you can then check-raise the field. The chance to get 2 extra BB with 95%+ equity is better than 2 extra SB with 56% equity IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think the turn ever gets checked through? Also, if I do check raise the turn in a protected pot, UTG may fold, and I might not get his BB. Furthermore, this disguises my hand, so I may induce extra action.

I am not sure if it is correct, but I sure liked it, and hope it is /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn may get checked through, but you also may not hit your hand. Also, calling on the flop and check-raising the turn gives you more bluffing equity IMO (it looks like you slowplayed a monster).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that talking about fold equity in a hand with a limp reraise is pretty silly. Either the guy has a big pair that he is representing OR he plays his hand like he has it so getting folds will be uncommon.

[cocofrite]

Does sb have JJ ?

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
Does sb have JJ ?

[/ QUOTE ]

A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Victor]

you are getting some weird responses here.

getting a lot of bets in on the flop 3way is +ev. the way you played it allowed you to do that.

surfdoc is right that there is no fold equity here.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love it, but you need to have the gutshot to make this right. Without the gutshot on the flop, I'd prefer to try to peel cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Even with just a flush draw, you'll make that slightly more than 33% of the time. Every raise on the flop is for value as long as you have at least 2 callers and helps tie people to the pot when you do hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

in situations with just a flush draw I really dont think it helps tie people to the pot. When you call/raise the flop on a board like this it looks like what it is, a set or the flush draw, when the 3rd flush card falls on the turn its an easy fold for people, and if it doesnt you might as well turn over your cards when you now check the turn, making it really hard to get paid off on the river.