PP 1/2 SH vs 3/6 SH

I am in the early stages of concidering taking a jump to the next level of SH at PP. I currently play the 1/2 level and seem to be crushing it, although my sample size is probobly too small. Since PP does not have 2/4 SH, if I were to stick with PP I would have to go to 3/6 level. Would this be wise, or would it be a smarter decision to play 2/4 at another site.

I would be very intested to hear the difference between 1/2 and 3/6 at PP in your experience. Also a recommendation on a site for the 2/4 would be appreciated.

[ghostface]

More aggressive (not much tho), a little higher percentage of TAGs. If you feel like exercising table/seat selection, there are some great tables to be found.

Right now I'm at 2 tables with two 50+ VPIPs to my right on both.

[bnorthro]

If you want a stopover at 2/4 SH, Eurobet (now on PokerRoom network) has a 100% match up to $600, will need around 6k hands to clear. It's a pretty sweet bonus and will clear pretty fast at the 2/4 SH. It's 5max at pokerroom, and the software takes a little getting used to, but man are the players bad there. This morning I had a guy to my left who was 93% vpip, like zero aggression. Also, you can sit at any open seat, so you can get position pretty easily.

Either way, a $600 bonus is a sweet boost for the bankroll.

I just read on bonuswhores.com that the bonus is only good on accounts created before 11/22. Althought it says that for reloads. Is it also true with any new accounts?

[bnorthro]

Not sure about new accounts, check their website. I think it's for all accounts because it was on their homepage. i had an old account from before the split so...

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want a stopover at 2/4 SH, Eurobet (now on PokerRoom network) has a 100% match up to $600, will need around 6k hands to clear. It's a pretty sweet bonus and will clear pretty fast at the 2/4 SH. It's 5max at pokerroom, and the software takes a little getting used to, but man are the players bad there. This morning I had a guy to my left who was 93% vpip, like zero aggression. Also, you can sit at any open seat, so you can get position pretty easily.

Either way, a $600 bonus is a sweet boost for the bankroll.

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The rake there makes it not really worth it.

[kapw7]

When I moved to the 3/6 games at Party I found them easier than 1/2. I said EASIER not more profitable! And that was mainly b/c ppl can fold there and you have plenty of weak and most important predictable TAGs. If you have the BR move there immediately. You won't achieve a 1/2 winrate but you are going to learn a lot more at 3/6

I did the Absolute 1/2 to 2/4 to PP 3/6 route, so I am not that familiar with PP 1/2 or Pokerstars 2/4, but from what I have played, it seems that PS 2/4 is a good middle step between PP 1/2 and PP 3/6. Plus the rake at Stars is quite good at 2/4--I think it is $1 at $20, $40, and $70, which is somewhat better than the Party/Prima model of $1 at $20 followed by $0.50 at $30 and $40, and is much better than sites that start raking before $20.

[vabogee]

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The rake there makes it not really worth it.

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Out of curiousity, what is the difference between party's and pokerroom's short-handed rake? I've looked at all different rake charts and they all give different results.

[bnorthro]

The players are so bad, I don't think the rake could make that big of a difference. You probably need like 1 pot an hour with some moron calling you down with bottom pair to make up for it.

But maybe I'm wrong. According to BonusWhore's website, the bonus cleared at like $9-11 an hour for $2/4 SH.

So I decided to take a stab at the PP 3/6 tables for a few hundred hands. At first I tried to play my game, not being too weak tight and being afraid to put in the extra bets. I am sure that I was a little more tight than I should have been.

Just like some people have been telling me, yes there are more TAG's than at 1/2, but there seem to be just as many LAG's. The funny thing is, in this brief experiment, at each table I played the loosest players (always VPIP of 50+)both tight and aggressive seemed to be winning the most. I tried not to let the 80/5/1's get me on tilt when they drew out on me, but it was just so amazing how profitable those players seem to be. Yes I know in the long run they are probobly losing players, but it really made me think.

At the end of this trial I did end up in the positive by about 10BB's. Not bad. Worth concidering in the long term.

[Gyre]

I took the step från PP 1/2 to 3/6 not too long ago and I must say that the 3/6 game is quite soft if you practise some kind of table selection.
Just like kapw7 says, if you have the BR to make it, go crush the 3/6 game /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Gyre]

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If you want a stopover at 2/4 SH, Eurobet (now on PokerRoom network) has a 100% match up to $600, will need around 6k hands to clear. It's a pretty sweet bonus and will clear pretty fast at the 2/4 SH. It's 5max at pokerroom, and the software takes a little getting used to, but man are the players bad there. This morning I had a guy to my left who was 93% vpip, like zero aggression. Also, you can sit at any open seat, so you can get position pretty easily.

Either way, a $600 bonus is a sweet boost for the bankroll.

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The rake there makes it not really worth it.

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According to the rake chart, http://www.pokerroom.com/support/faq/questions.php?id=35 , it deosn't look bad at all, or am I missing someting?

EDIT: Ops, thought they men Big Bets nog Big Blinds. That makes it a bit worse /images/graemlins/frown.gif

What type of stats do you generally look for for the table or what seem to be the most profitable? VPIP +35? PFR <10?

or do you more look for individual players?

I generally do both, but am curious to what has worked best for others.

[Gyre]

I only look at the players stats, as long as I got two morons to my right I dont care if the other 3 guys are TAG's.

Do you have the bankroll to leapfrog from 1-2 to 3-6?

Since your 1-2 sample size is small, the short term runs of LAGs and calling stations still strikes you as remarkable (though I too can be incredulous at times) and there are good 2-4 options, might make sense to go that route.

I am limited to pokerroom at the moment (mac user) and agree that there are very juicy 2-4 games, though table selection can be pretty small and it is 5 max vs. 6 max.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh! Please stick with me here, I know this post is long and may seem to drag on, but there is a purpose, and I really need some advice.

The experiment is finally over, after a few thousand hands, and I must say that I am completely exhausted and my confidence diminished.

As usual I started off the trial with a 50BB positive swing with some of the usual swings, although a bit more drastic than I am used to. Followed by this I took 33BB negative swing quickley following it up with a regain to my peak.

Since then I have taken a nose dive of 67 BB filled with ups and downs, mostly downs. Yes I know people always talk about how they have had swings of 200+, but it just seems that 3/6 is a completely different world that 1/2 by leaps and bounds.

I know that my sample size for 1/2 is relatively small (7K)but I had never seen swings this bad during this stretch, not even close. It has mostly been 7K hands of up up and away with around 5BB/100. I know inevidably I will hit the wall and run bad, I am well aware.

After experiencing both levels of play I would have to say that the primary difference between 1/2 and 3/6 are the aggressiveness/skill/luck of the LAGtards. They kick my butt at every single table I play, even when they are on my right. No matter how I adjust my play to them I was always just handing loads and loads of money over to them. The TAGs at the table I could beat consistantly no matter where they were. I always did better at 20/10 tables than 50/15 tables, much much better. I am not sure I understand why it is that I am able to beat the TAGs but not the LAGs at this level. In the 1/2 level I can seem to beat any type of player consistantly regardless of their position.

What would it take to figure out what it is that I am doing wrong at these levels? What stats could I post or examine that may lead me to some answers? I really want to get to the route of my issues so that when I am fully ready I can move up a level with confidence. I think it is good that I conducted this experiment, now, on a temporary basis to give me a feel of what my real skill level is. Its quite frustrating, but I know it is part of the process. A very necessary step in the process. Again I apologize if I rambled on, my ADD is acting up again. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[kapw7]

If you can't beat LAGs there is no way you can beat TAGs. 1/2 "TAGs" are usually weak and predictable but at 3/6 they become much better. I guess 3/6 is the entry level for pros as well.

Have a look at this link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=headsup&Number=4008184&fp art=&PHPSESSID=) and also the original link that Naphand gives.

Good luck.

Seriously, at 3/6 I was beating TAG's handily, but getting destroyed by LAGs. Im not really sure what this means.

[EvanJC]

it doesnt mean anything. your sample size is way too small to be meaningful

[imported_leader]

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Seriously, at 3/6 I was beating TAG's handily, but getting destroyed by LAGs. Im not really sure what this means.

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In all likelihood it means you don't know how to call. You're doing fit or fold too much.

[SlyGuy]

7k is absolutely irrelevant amount of hands shorthanded. I was over 10BB/100 winrate over 5k at 1/2. It's meaningless. 3/6 is much tougher than 1/2. The good TAG's are far superior to the 1/2 tags. 3/6 SH is where you will start to see a lot of good players. Play 20-30k at 1/2 then come back and post about moving up. You need to be sure its not just a run of hot cards that gave you a big ego at 1/2.

[ClaytonN]

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When I moved to the 3/6 games at Party I found them easier than 1/2. I said EASIER not more profitable! And that was mainly b/c ppl can fold there and you have plenty of weak and most important predictable TAGs. If you have the BR move there immediately. You won't achieve a 1/2 winrate but you are going to learn a lot more at 3/6

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I can vouch for this. Easier to run people over and also easier to put people on hands. More poker involved and less value-bet-good-hands-die-of-boredom.

What pissed me off about 1/2 was the fact that the blinds never, ever folded to open cutoff or button raises. People do that more in 3/6.

Your are all correct, yes I know my sample size it is small. However it is just obvious to me that the same situation at this level pan out much differently than at 1/2 and hence the LAG's are laying it on me. It very well may be true that I am running hot at 1/2, in fact I know I am.

This was just an experiment to see where I stand, and I am trying to figure out wholes in my game to work on until it truly is time for me to move up.

[soah]

The play at 3/6 is much more aggressive preflop. Fortunately though, much of it is stupid aggression... players raising Axo (and worse) from the first two seats, etc. The play is generally tighter, although still too loose in many cases. So basically you're not going to see people openlimping with 42o on the button and calling down with bottom pair as much as you see in 1/2. But, you do still get coldcalled preflop by dominated trash and baby suited trash quite frequently. Getting donkbet on the flop at 1/2 would often be any pair, while at 3/6 I've found it's usually TPNK (which they won't fold no matter what you do.) Once you play a few thousand hands you can get pretty good at hand reading against unknowns... flop raises usually aren't hands better than top pair, turn raises are usually hands better than top pair, etc.

At 1/2 every table was profitable... at 3/6 there are players that I don't feel I have an edge against, and sometimes I end up at tables where I don't see anyone making many significant mistakes, and I have to leave (this is more likely to occur when the game is shorthanded... usually a couple fish go bust, leaving me with a couple solid players).

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[What pissed me off about 1/2 was the fact that the blinds never, ever folded to open cutoff or button raises. People do that more in 3/6.

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This doesn't piss me off, and it shouldn't piss you off. Do you see why?

As far as swings, I have 80-100 BB up and down swings nearly every 1000 hands, so don't worry about it. As long as the long-term trend has a positive slope, you are in good shape.

Think about it, you can put in 10-15 BB in a pot with a monster hand, but sometimes you get outdrawn on. Lose a few of these pots in a row, and you're down 50 BB. Win a few in a row and you're up 100 BB. If you combine this with dry and hot stretches of starting hands, 100 BB swings are easy to achieve.

FWIW, I'm starting to split my time between Stars 2/4 and Stars 3/6 and find that the only difference is that the average VP$IP is something like 5% smaller on most tables. You can still find plenty of players above 50-60, though. I haven't yet seen a dramatic change in going up to a new limit, just gradual tightening and more selective aggression.

It now appears that my brief journey into 3/6 has messed up my game at the 1/2 level. It has turned me into being quite aggressive, abit more than I use to be. This in turn is kicking my ass. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaar! I need a beer.

[raze]

[ QUOTE ]
It now appears that my brief journey into 3/6 has messed up my game at the 1/2 level. It has turned me into being quite aggressive, abit more than I use to be. This in turn is kicking my ass. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaar! I need a beer.

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I encountered the opposite when I jumped from ABS 1/2 to PP 3/6 - I was so used to fighting off tables of TAs that I completely forgot how to fish lol

[waffle]

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This doesn't piss me off, and it shouldn't piss you off. Do you see why?


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The expectation of playing out most of your stealing hands is lower than just stealing the blinds outright. Sure, you don't want the blinds to fold when you raise AA.. but when you raise K7s, you definitely want them to fold.

Care to back up your argument, or are you just going to throw out another condescending one liner?