when the flop is paired

[Wynton]

You're in BB with something like J8 and see a free flop after 1 or 2 limp. Flop is J44.

Do you have a default move here?

[jrz1972]

Bet?

(I would probably bet this particular flop first and only later look to see what my card were).

[Wynton]

I often would bet the flop even if it didn't hit me, recognizing that there's a good chance it helped no one.

But for the same reason -- i.e., people often fold - I'm just toying with the idea of trying a c/r on the flop instead. They'll fold immediately if they have nothing, but at least I'd get one more sb out of it.

[jrz1972]

Okay so when the board pairs and you lead off, I know you don't have anything so I'm raising.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay so when the board pairs and you lead off, I know you don't have anything so I'm raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, that is a decent play by villain, especially if he sees me doing something repeatedly. But since most low-limit people aren't going to do that - particularly considering he limped in the first place - I don't see that as a big factor in my original question.

[Peter Harris]

with Jx on J44 flop i'm more inclined to like a 20% c/r, 80% lead line.

I would prefer a straight 100% donk with say 98 on a 944 flop as there are more overcards and a c/r won't fold anyone out, if they bet at all.

[Redd]

Against a couple people whom you think have nothing, a check-raise really sucks when the free card they take gives them something that beats you.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a couple people whom you think have nothing, a check-raise really sucks when the free card they take gives them something that beats you.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I might be projecting my own habits here a bit, because when I see this kind of board, I'm ultra-tempted to take a shot at it, from any position. Thus, I tend to assume that others have the same attitude, but perhaps that's unjustified here.

[Snarf]

My standard line is to almost always bet a flop like that.
My reasoning being that if you check/call then you have no information as to wether or not you have the best hand or not. If you bet and get raised or called - then you can start to gather information. Plus, the irony of check/raising someone that has the hand you represent is too much. Not to mention, if you check-raised me in the spot I would assume you have the Jack w/no kicker in the big blind. (Why c/r the strong hand w/no draws to push out?)

Here's my classic thinking that I re-evaluate every time I'm in this spot:
I bet.
Tricky player: Calls = I'm beat
Raises = I have best hand or am outkicked
Predictable player: Calls = Beat by kicker, two overs,
mid-pair
Raises = Beat, but might be able to
bluff out of pot reraising

I'll bet it less often the higher the unpaired card is. Its what Slansky talks about...slowplaying a hand that might not be the best hand - but is likely to be the best hand at the end IF it is now.

Meaning, if it were K 44 I would check through....let someone else catch their J on the river and then get money from them.

Plus if you always bet the top pair in this spot - then you can also always safely bet the trips here. It raises your deception value for later.

[wowacedude]

My standard is to bet these kinds of hands, people likes to call so i let them do it, especially on paired boards.
This also should make it easier to pick up pots with bluffs, but as you say, these guys don't pay attention.

Anyway, i've been trying to c/r some lately so i'm interested if there is some good discussion about this.

-Per

[StellarWind]

If I feel that I never get a free card when I miss this board then I checkraise. Otherwise I bet. You must play your opponents in this situation. Don't miss lucrative opportunities to send a message to the bet-behinds.

BTW, this hand is quite strong in relation to pot size. Getting paid takes precedence over protection. Putting money in this flop with A6 is a substantial error and calling me down is a terrible error.

[bobman0330]

Nice post Shnarf.

[DMBFan23]

there's a great chapter in HPFAP about this that says it all better than I could.

I have been taught by all my coaches to bet at these boards a lot, and that's worked fairly well, with the usual caveats (be more inclined to the higher the top card is if there was no raise PF, be less inclined on flush boards, etc).

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
If I feel that I never get a free card when I miss this board then I checkraise. Otherwise I bet. You must play your opponents in this situation. Don't miss lucrative opportunities to send a message to the bet-behinds.

BTW, this hand is quite strong in relation to pot size. Getting paid takes precedence over protection. Putting money in this flop with A6 is a substantial error and calling me down is a terrible error.

[/ QUOTE ]

your [censored] is gold lately man

my default move is bet. against a lagtard, maybe a checkraise, especially one who is not going away with King high.