extracting value?

[soah]

2/4 6-max at Stars

UTG raises, someone folds, I call with AKo, button calls, TAG in SB calls, complete unknown in the BB reraises to $52, UTG calls, I call, button folds, SB calls. Effective stacks $400. Four players to the flop for $52 each..!!

Flop AA5 rainbow. $220 in pot. Checked to me. I bet $75. Fold, fold, SB calls.

Turn 7, check check.

I was hoping to sucker in SB for all his chips with what appeared to be a big pocket pair. But, I also have to consider that by letting him stick around, I'll lose the pot by the river about 10% of the time, and despite all my careful trapping, he still might get away at the end. So I'm not so sure if I like this line or not. Alternate lines would be to blast away at the flop and hope it looks like a scared pocket pair (or bluff) trying to take down the pot, pushing the turn (screw deception, just get the chips in now!), make another milking bet on the turn, or check the flop (I'm pretty sure that sucks a lot).

[PinkSteel]

So SB is TAG. If you had a high PP and saw that flop with 3 others, would you be prepared to get all your chips in the middle? AK is a likely hand of anyone who comes out betting here. If I just had a pair I think I'd give up to any sizable bet.

"Win The Big Pots Early." There's good value already in the middle of the table. Invite SB to make a mistake by value betting every street, and be happy to take it down when he gives up. The reverse implied odds are minimal but they're still there. If you give him a free card and he spikes his 2-outer, you lose YOUR stack.

Of course if you know SB better than that then maybe you get tricky, but against a typical TAG, I just take it down. (But I suck.)

[scrapperdog]

You would think villian has at best a 2 or 3 outer with 1 card to come that is not the time I worry about taking it down now. I either make a value bet or check to induce the river bluff, I dont move in until river. The only card I worry about on river is a queen.

[jkkkk]

I bet this turn, if not to defend my hand its to build a pot where he has a weaker A.

[soah]

I screwed up my post. BB is the one who called my flop bet.

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
You would think villian has at best a 2 or 3 outer with 1 card to come that is not the time I worry about taking it down now. I either make a value bet or check to induce the river bluff, I dont move in until river. The only card I worry about on river is a queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to get a bluff from a TAG with a big pair. He's going to hope he's good, check it and call a modest bet, or maybe block.

So I make the value bet you allude to. I like OP's flop bet and I'd go similarly (1/3 pottish) on each street.

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
I screwed up my post. BB is the one who called my flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case I still like a bet, but something weak like 1/4 pot.

[scrapperdog]

Yes I agree with you pink that is why I put value bet first cause I will do it most often. Once in a while I will check if I think the guy is capable of a big bluff but it is not that often. The villian called one bet there really is no reason to see if he wont call more.

[punter11235]

I hate 75$ bet.
I would pot it or check depends on the mood. Most ppl thinks small bet = trapping.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Milking bet on turn. You don't need much to protect against 2 outer but you want some money going in and you want to give him a chance to bluff.

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate 75$ bet.
I would pot it or check depends on the mood. Most ppl thinks small bet = trapping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't hate the $75 bet at all. If OP's read is good, that bet invites Villain to make a mistake in calling, offering ~8:1 implied. And Villain may think: a chance I'm good, and a chance I can spike if not. So he may well call.

My default would be to pot it -- standard lead -- but I think this is poor here. You fold everyone but the weaker A and hands that beat you; the pairs won't play. It lets most hands play perfectly against you. You should make the play that invites the most mistakes, and here I think it's value bets all the way down.

[4_2_it]

How about a $50-$75 bet bet on the turn? It looks weird, villain gets better odds than he got calling the flop (he might even raise with the case A) and I think you have a better shot at getting your river bet called. If villiain doesn't have the case A then I doubt you are going to extract big $$$ here.

[djoyce003]

I probably go with a full on potsized bet.....I think KK or QQ might call that more often than they call an obvious value bet like $100 or $75. If he folds oh well, the pot is already nice. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[soah]

In hindsight, making another bet of $75-100 on the turn would probably be best, because as soon as I checked I realized there was still too much money left for him to call it all on the river. So, a queen came, he insta-pushed, and I donated my stack to him.

Looking back on it, he's calling $75 on the flop with around a 10% chance to win, and he'll win more than ten times that much if he hits. So I actually didn't even force him to make a mistake, assuming he wasn't going to call again on the river unimproved. So I managed to take a situation where I was a huge favorite in a $220 pot and turn it into an EV neutral situation. Absolutely terrible.

[KowCiller]

Soah,

I think it's going to be pretty tough for you to represent a flop bluff on this hand. You've got 4 way action in a preflop reraised pot. It seems pretty unlikely that everyone will doubt a big ace is looming out there and be willing to play back at you after a typical 2/3-full pot bet into 3 players.

Because of this, I think the weak "feeler-becaues-i've-got-99-bet" line is going to get max value here, most often when someone tries to pounce on your weakness representing the ace themself. Also, you're probably checking a lot of pots in position anyway, so I think you should go ahead and do that here too.

The river becomes interesting after checking the turn. If villain checks again (which a TAG probably wouldn't do with an ace himself) you can try a big river overbet where you have the best chance of representing a bluff against one player. A smart TAG might have an easier time getting away from a river 1/2 pot value bet than a huge bet, especially if he's the type to make a big call with QQ or JJ here.

If villain block/value bets, you can push/call depending on what falls on the river.

In summary, unless TAG Villain thinks your FOS, or has AQ, I think it's going to be tough for you to get his stack. That said, I think the above line will get ya the most.

KoW

Edit: Just read that the hand was messed up and it was really the unknown BB who called. Even still I think most of this applies to an unknown on party. i haven't played on stars though.

[beavens]

i'd bet the flop for 1/2 pot, same on turn, and donate just like you did on the river.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
So I managed to take a situation where I was a huge favorite in a $220 pot and turn it into an EV neutral situation. Absolutely terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This assumes he never puts another penny in after the flop bet unless he hits a queen. You can't make that assumption. It also assumes he knows you'll pay off a push on the river. If he 1/2 pot value bets the river Q I doubt you're pushing as it's the worst card in the deck...I don't think it's terrible.

KoW

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
In hindsight, making another bet of $75-100 on the turn would probably be best, because as soon as I checked I realized there was still too much money left for him to call it all on the river. So, a queen came, he insta-pushed, and I donated my stack to him.

Looking back on it, he's calling $75 on the flop with around a 10% chance to win, and he'll win more than ten times that much if he hits. So I actually didn't even force him to make a mistake, assuming he wasn't going to call again on the river unimproved. So I managed to take a situation where I was a huge favorite in a $220 pot and turn it into an EV neutral situation. Absolutely terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, assuming effective stacks are near 400, he can only win 550 by calling this flop bet. So not really good enough odds for him to call, but somewhat close.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd bet the flop for 1/2 pot, same on turn, and donate just like you did on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the half pot bet on the flop, and then pushing the turn.

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd bet the flop for 1/2 pot, same on turn, and donate just like you did on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the half pot bet on the flop, and then pushing the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, yeah i like this better.. forgot the pot is getting mighty large.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
actually, yeah i like this better.. forgot the pot is getting mighty large.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, i was going to say that i agreed with you at first, but then i realised that the pot was so big that i might as well push the turn.

[snappo]

you flop trip aces top kicker in a pot of $220 with $350 left. i would just be looking to get all-in, only one hand can beat you. i think you should bet the flop and bet any turn allin. pot is too big to slowplay.

[el_grande]

I don't think I've ever slowplayed trip Aces.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In hindsight, making another bet of $75-100 on the turn would probably be best, because as soon as I checked I realized there was still too much money left for him to call it all on the river. So, a queen came, he insta-pushed, and I donated my stack to him.

Looking back on it, he's calling $75 on the flop with around a 10% chance to win, and he'll win more than ten times that much if he hits. So I actually didn't even force him to make a mistake, assuming he wasn't going to call again on the river unimproved. So I managed to take a situation where I was a huge favorite in a $220 pot and turn it into an EV neutral situation. Absolutely terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, assuming effective stacks are near 400, he can only win 550 by calling this flop bet. So not really good enough odds for him to call, but somewhat close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for pointing out that I'm an idiot. I somehow managed to count his own stack as part of his implied odds. Meh. I still think I donked this up real good. Pot is too big to slowplay on the turn and it's gonna be real tough (probably impossible) to get him to call off $270 or so on the river.