Expert Play according to the Table Coach [Archive]

bottomset

12-01-2005, 07:35 AM

so I decided to play some fullring again, its been a while, and I decide to play 2/4 and 3/6 at first to get my LAG phase out of the way

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is MP3 with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, bottomset raises, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

it is at this point I realize I isolated a 21/10 and a 9/3 w/ A7s, in MP3 .. to think I make money playing poker

Flop: (7.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, bottomset calls, UTG+1 folds.

oh yippee passive rock is donking into me

Turn: (4.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, bottomset raises, MP2 3-bets, bottomset calls.

woohoo a 7, I raise .. oh [censored] rock 3bets

River: (10.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, bottomset raises, MP2 3-bets, bottomset caps, MP2 calls.

OMG I rule at poker

so I check the HH to see how bad of a suckout it was, and he had 65 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and I put in 7BB with the best of it

ok here's another hand

table is loose/passive
first orbit at the table

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
bottomset calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, bottomset calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, bottomset checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, BB calls, bottomset raises, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, bottomset bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (12.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, bottomset bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 14.16 BB

Vote4Pedro

12-01-2005, 08:10 AM

Hand 1: What was your plan if UI on the turn? The rest of the hand is cool

Hand 2: PF is the only questionable street imo, I think its a reasonable limp given the table conditions

Webster

12-01-2005, 08:10 AM

Well - hand one you certainly should not be raising in with that and then you wimp out on the flop by calling.

Hand noumner to you are REAL loose fishy by playing those cards.

Sorry but I WANT you at MY table. :-)

bottomset

12-01-2005, 08:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but I WANT you at MY table. :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

I will be playing on stars in a couple hours, if I don't pass out. I'm real easy to find I'll be at 5/10 6max, or 2/4-5/10 full depends on whats good

careful what you wish for

bottomset

12-01-2005, 08:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: What was your plan if UI on the turn? The rest of the hand is cool

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah

fold UI
checkbehind UI if possible

Vote4Pedro

12-01-2005, 08:29 AM

yeah as in fold?

bottomset

12-01-2005, 08:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah as in fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I read good too

I thought about folding the flop, but said I'm gonna suckout

jaxUp

12-01-2005, 09:58 AM

did it take anybody else a really long time to figure out what noumner meant?

benkath1

12-01-2005, 10:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
did it take anybody else a really long time to figure out what noumner meant?

[/ QUOTE ]

When coupled with "to" I finally figured it out.

jaxUp

12-01-2005, 10:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did it take anybody else a really long time to figure out what noumner meant?

[/ QUOTE ]

When coupled with "to" I finally figured it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, I'm slow this morning and was looking for "two".

12-01-2005, 12:20 PM

i find it hard to critique a better player playing at levels ive never spent a decent amount of hands playing to understand....

but imo preflop seems pretty bad in both. i limp hand 1 and fold hand 2.... hand 1 is close, hand 2 is just... wrong

postflop is perfect in both hands, maybe that has something to do with why you can play 89s UTG.

SoftcoreRevolt

12-01-2005, 12:33 PM

How is preflop wrong in hand two? Preflop is great. He has a hand with a bit of top pair value, that is suited and connected on a table that is loose and sees few pre flop raises. These are ideal conditions to play mid suited connectors like T9s and 98s in EP, yes you lack position, but knowledge of the the players at the table and how to play the situations that will come up will help to minimize any disadvantages you have.

12-01-2005, 01:02 PM

i def would not limp hand 1. folding is a lot better than limping in this case. i think a raise is in order because a passive rock can be outplayed postflop. a raise is in order on the flop though.

not a good idea to limp in in hand 2 IMO. unless the table is so loose/passive that you expect 5 way limps after you. the table may have been just that. so you can't really say it's WRONG.

SCfuji

12-01-2005, 01:07 PM

is call on the flop in hand 1 was fine.

milesdyson

12-01-2005, 01:16 PM

wow what a fish limping that carp come play at my table, and GET READY TO BE TAGGED BY MY SKILLS.

bottomset

12-01-2005, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wow what a fish limping that carp come play at my table, and GET READY TO BE TAGGED BY MY SKILLS.

[/ QUOTE ]

you were at one of these tables? the 3/6 table did get worse after I played so good with 98s

this thread is tough to read, its like everybody forgot how to write coherent statements

milesdyson

12-01-2005, 01:34 PM

what? i'm noumner on and we all know this. i wasnt at that tabulle but i wish i was! your threads always end up like this somehow.

bozlax

12-01-2005, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is tough to read, its like everybody forgot how to write coherent statements

[/ QUOTE ]

I am insinuated by your constitution, and won't be corrugated by you!

Aaron W.

12-01-2005, 01:41 PM

I don't like the limp in hand 2. Not during the first orbit, anyway. I would want to get a better feel for what's going on before making a super-marginal limp OOP. After that, it looks fine. What did CO call with? AK? 55?

jaxUp

12-01-2005, 01:45 PM

ok, sweriously, I tihnk that in had 1 you need to fold Pf. u'll be domenated to offten. If plyers are weak potsflops then i could maybe raise ti. ur postflop pla yis good IMO.

Hadn 2 is kind iffy preflop, but itsokay. AGain, opstflop i sstandard.

bottomset

12-01-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would want to get a better feel for what's going on before making a super-marginal limp OOP. After that, it looks fine. What did CO call with? AK? 55?

[/ QUOTE ]

CO had K /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif I might have an image problem if i'm getting called by Khigh .. especially when I don't remember him making any other CS superloose calls

[ QUOTE ]
ok, sweriously, I tihnk that in had 1 you need to fold Pf. u'll be domenated to offten. If plyers are weak potsflops then i could maybe raise ti. ur postflop pla yis good IMO.

Hadn 2 is kind iffy preflop, but itsokay. AGain, opstflop i sstandard.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I agree on hand1

hand2 well preflop might be a little -EV but we are talking in terms of nickels and not a lot of them besides postflop is what makes the game fun anyway

tiltaholic

12-01-2005, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would want to get a better feel for what's going on before making a super-marginal limp OOP. After that, it looks fine. What did CO call with? AK? 55?

[/ QUOTE ]

CO had K /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif I might have an image problem if i'm getting called by Khigh .. especially when I don't remember him making any other CS superloose calls

[ QUOTE ]
ok, sweriously, I tihnk that in had 1 you need to fold Pf. u'll be domenated to offten. If plyers are weak potsflops then i could maybe raise ti. ur postflop pla yis good IMO.

Hadn 2 is kind iffy preflop, but itsokay. AGain, opstflop i sstandard.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I agree on hand1

hand2 well preflop might be a little -EV but we are talking in terms of nickels and not a lot of them besides postflop is what makes the game fun anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

are you seriously advocating folding A7s preflop after 2 limpers here?

i'm assuming that when you raised you thought they were loose enough to be bad players, and then realized they weren't...

even if they are tightish, don't you think A7s plays well enough here to at least limp and try to keep several people in?

as an aside, my arbitrary cutoff for making these types of value raises is usually A8s for 2 poor limpers. so A7s isn't off the range.

12-01-2005, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would want to get a better feel for what's going on before making a super-marginal limp OOP. After that, it looks fine. What did CO call with? AK? 55?

[/ QUOTE ]

CO had K /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif I might have an image problem if i'm getting called by Khigh .. especially when I don't remember him making any other CS superloose calls

[ QUOTE ]
ok, sweriously, I tihnk that in had 1 you need to fold Pf. u'll be domenated to offten. If plyers are weak potsflops then i could maybe raise ti. ur postflop pla yis good IMO.

Hadn 2 is kind iffy preflop, but itsokay. AGain, opstflop i sstandard.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I agree on hand1

hand2 well preflop might be a little -EV but we are talking in terms of nickels and not a lot of them besides postflop is what makes the game fun anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

are you seriously advocating folding A7s preflop after 2 limpers here?

i'm assuming that when you raised you thought they were loose enough to be bad players, and then realized they weren't...

even if they are tightish, don't you think A7s plays well enough here to at least limp and try to keep several people in?

as an aside, my arbitrary cutoff for making these types of value raises is usually A8s for 2 poor limpers. so A7s isn't off the range.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. but the question is... do you want anybody behind you limping in?

PokerSlut

12-01-2005, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]

agreed. but the question is... do you want anybody behind you limping in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering I am playing A7s mostly for flush value, yes.

Redd

12-01-2005, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

agreed. but the question is... do you want anybody behind you limping in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering I am playing A7s mostly for flush value, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want everyone limping in behind me at microlimits, but not because I play my A7s mostly for flush value. I just know that whatever they limp with is probably a dog to my hand, so I'm fine with it.

Redd

12-01-2005, 03:19 PM

Hey set, how many hands were you reads on in hand 1? That 9/3 totally shouldn't be in the pot here unless things are quite unconverged.

So if you were planning on folding the turn UI, why call the flop with 3 outs? Whatever he bet with OOP on the flop he'll probably continue with on the turn, winning or otherwise. If you folded UI here you just would have spent an extra SB before folding the best hand.

I fold pf in hand noumner to.

Aaron W.

12-01-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How is preflop wrong in hand two? Preflop is great. He has a hand with a bit of top pair value, that is suited and connected on a table that is loose and sees few pre flop raises. These are ideal conditions to play mid suited connectors like T9s and 98s in EP, yes you lack position, but knowledge of the the players at the table and how to play the situations that will come up will help to minimize any disadvantages you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even under ideal conditions, limping 98s UTG is marginal. I think you underestimate the value of position with these hands. It's very hard to minimize a positional disadvantage against multiple loose passive players.

12-01-2005, 03:48 PM

so you wouldn't play A7s PF for the top pair value? with two limpers in front of you wouldn't it be likely that you're ahead? does that mean you would check/fold if you dont hit your flush draw on the flop?

i just thought it would be better to raise MP with two limpers because it would drive out the weaker, but stronger A than you (A8 through maybe ATo if passive enough) in which case you'd be buying outs. not only that this raise would set up the flop aggression. am i wrong in thinking this?

Redd

12-01-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
so you wouldn't play A7s PF for the top pair value? with two limpers in front of you wouldn't it be likely that you're ahead? does that mean you would check/fold if you dont hit your flush draw on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually saying that I don't just play for flush value. In most circumstances, I play pretty aggressively if I hit either of my pair outs with A7s. This is of course highly situational, which is exemplified by this hand where I don't hate calling TPMK with our read on Villain.

You're absolutely right that we may have the best hand after two 'typical' limpers in a micro game (note that this is less likely to be true against the limpers specified in this particular hand). And check-folding if I hit a hand weaker than a flush draw (ie, TP hand) is not my normal play. It happens to me occasionally, but not often.

My point is that it's unwise to call suited aces just for flush value. Since flush-over-flush is so rare (I don't know the exact numbers but I'd estimate it happens <15% of the time? Anyone have time for combinatrix?), we usually don't need to worry much if our flush is the nut flush or not. Sure, it's great to be able to play aggressively with the nuts, but T5s is going to make almost as many winning flushes as A7s. Since A7s is a common limp and T5s is usually a mistake, we must be playing for more than just flush value with Axs.

[ QUOTE ]
i just thought it would be better to raise MP with two limpers because it would drive out the weaker, but stronger A than you (A8 through maybe ATo if passive enough) in which case you'd be buying outs. not only that this raise would set up the flop aggression. am i wrong in thinking this?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is partially true IMO. If I were raising this hand, I'm usually trying to isolate a looser EP player here, since my hand is a big favorite against his range. So a raise is simultaneously trying to get folds from better, dominating hands and calls from weaker hands that we have an equity edge against.

Note that both of these won't necessarily happen at once, and quite often only one or the other will happen. Generally in low limit games, forcing an opponent make a bad fold is tougher than forcing an opponent to make a bad call. I usually raise weakish hands preflop (say ATo), expecting cold-calls from many hands, only a small fraction of which dominate me. So while it's true that we're trying to fold better hands, IMO it's more important to extract value from worse ones at microlimits. In this particular hand, I don't like a raise because the chances that we're dominated by one of the tight EP limpers is high enough that I don't think that we have the equity to do so. This hand is actually a poor example of a typical microlimit game for me to answer your questions with, because the two limpers have such low VPIPs.

12-01-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So while it's true that we're trying to fold better hands, IMO it's more important to extract value from worse ones at microlimits. In this particular hand, I don't like a raise because the chances that we're dominated by one of the tight EP limpers is high enough that I don't think that we have the equity to do so. This hand is actually a poor example of a typical microlimit game for me to answer your questions with, because the two limpers have such low VPIPs.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. but i just think it makes this hand a lot easier if you raise. sometimes the headache/stress you avoid postflop by raising is worth the small +EV you're giving up IMO. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

bottomset

12-01-2005, 09:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So if you were planning on folding the turn UI, why call the flop with 3 outs? Whatever he bet with OOP on the flop he'll probably continue with on the turn, winning or otherwise. If you folded UI here you just would have spent an extra SB before folding the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

my experience with superweaktight players is that they give up, and switch to check/call/pray mode unless they are superstrong

so that 1SB often buys 2cards, and 8.5/1 with some possibility of being ahead seems like a decent price

Obviously my read was off on this specific hand, and subsequently changed to reflect the newfound info, since WT players don't play 65s, let alone 3bet the turn with bottompair/fd

[ QUOTE ]
Even under ideal conditions, limping 98s UTG is marginal. I think you underestimate the value of position with these hands. It's very hard to minimize a positional disadvantage against multiple loose passive players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it was a slamdunk you need to play this hand, I know you weren't specifically talking to me, but I will defend the limp a little, if its a mistake to limp its a tiny one, I'd estimate if I misjudge the table, I'll get around .45BB back on my .5BB investment, a 0.05BB misstep, which is minimal. Most preflop errors are small in magnitude(hence the don't focus on it too much attitude) where you get in trouble is small errors that you have the opportunity to make very often. So if I limp JTs-98s UTG(10handed) everytime, I get one of those 3hands 1/110, and get one UTG 1/1110 so even if I lose .25BB everytime I limp, its still miniscule overall. I'm comfortable with my postflop play, and look to play hands that have big pot potential whenever I can, these medium suited connectors are those types of hands.

bottomset

12-03-2005, 12:48 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is Button with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, bottomset calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, bottomset checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, bottomset bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, bottomset bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

12-03-2005, 12:52 AM

I got three pair! Windmill slam those cards on the table. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

bottomset

12-07-2005, 04:23 AM

UTG is unknown, BB is fairly lag, but scares a little easy

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, bottomset raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
bottomset bets, BB raises, UTG calls, bottomset calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
bottomset bets, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
bottomset bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Shillx

12-07-2005, 04:27 AM

Hot

crovax4444

12-07-2005, 06:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is Button with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, bottomset calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, bottomset checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, bottomset bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, bottomset bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I am so lost on playing this on the button. I really question whether this is simply just -EV to play, not even marginally. Even great post-flop skills on this feels like a leak.

I assume that the bet on the turn = partial bluff that you have a 10 + you slightly improved, beating overcards + everyone is checking to you. Would you fold this if it was raised on either the turn or river?

Crovax

jaxUp

12-07-2005, 09:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is Button with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, bottomset calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, bottomset checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, bottomset bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, bottomset bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that the bet on the turn = partial bluff that you have a 10 + you slightly improved, beating overcards + everyone is checking to you. Would you fold this if it was raised on either the turn or river?

Crovax

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, he would.

MN_Mime

12-07-2005, 10:41 AM

Oddly, 53s is one of my top ten money-makers with over 100 plays from the button. For some reason, I have a better feel when to release this hand (or when I am going to flop goot) than I do with JJ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

RatFink

12-07-2005, 11:03 AM

Playing this on the button here is hot.

Betting the river when counterfeited is hotter. Since the EV of checking is less than the EV of betting. Getting called by somebody with an Ace is definitely not cool but hot in a meta hot kind of way.

ReptileHouse

12-07-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is unknown, BB is fairly lag, but scares a little easy

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, bottomset raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
bottomset bets, BB raises, UTG calls, bottomset calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
bottomset bets, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
bottomset bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I might try to c/r the turn, but other than that I like. OTOH, I have FPS these days, so betting out is likely better.

nice hand.

bottomset

12-11-2005, 06:27 AM

BB, UTG are moderately loose, UTG1 is very loose, PFR is unknown

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, bottomset calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
bottomset bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
bottomset checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 folds, bottomset calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
bottomset bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, bottomset 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, bottomset calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

tyler_cracker

12-11-2005, 04:34 PM

Er, what part of this isn't totally standard?

12-11-2005, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Er, what part of this isn't totally standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

We might have c/r'd the flop and bought some overcard outs.

tyler_cracker

12-11-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Er, what part of this isn't totally standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

We might have c/r'd the flop and bought some overcard outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're much more likely to win with our straight than with a pair of Qs with a weak kicker. I would rather build a pot than try and knock out overcards/weak Js.

Plus, by leading we can always bet/3-bet and get the best of both worlds /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Greg J

12-11-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
table is loose/passive
first orbit at the table

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
bottomset calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, bottomset calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, bottomset checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, BB calls, bottomset raises, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, bottomset bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (12.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, bottomset bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 14.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to go over this hand. It's interesting IMO.

Preflop is okay I think -- borderline but playing this is profitable if you can outply these clowns postflop. I might fold this first orbit though.

The flop is, I think, the most interesting street. I'm not totally sure the flop check raise is the best play. I think a bet/call line might be better. Yr relative position to the pf raiser is pretty good, so if you hit on fourth street you can possibly checkraise ace hunters who call MP3 there. That is if you get raised on the flop. Otherwise there is a chance it gets checked through (which would suck).

This might be totally wrong though -- I'm just thinking out loud, er... in type. I don't mind how you played it.

detruncate

12-11-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
table is loose/passive
first orbit at the table

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: bottomset is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
bottomset calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, bottomset calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, bottomset checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, BB calls, bottomset raises, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, bottomset bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (12.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, bottomset bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 14.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to go over this hand. It's interesting IMO.

Preflop is okay I think -- borderline but playing this is profitable if you can outply these clowns postflop. I might fold this first orbit though.

The flop is, I think, the most interesting street. I'm not totally sure the flop check raise is the best play. I think a bet/call line might be better. Yr relative position to the pf raiser is pretty good, so if you hit on fourth street you can possibly checkraise ace hunters who call MP3 there. That is if you get raised on the flop. Otherwise there is a chance it gets checked through (which would suck).

This might be totally wrong though -- I'm just thinking out loud, er... in type. I don't mind how you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't want to rely on a pfr'er to lead the flop 6 way, but we don't love it when we bet and get raised by the pfr'er unless UTG+1 calls first or we get coldcalls or Villain would raise overs. We regret some probable missed value bets some of the time when we check, but we get to see how things shake out and act accordingly + sometimes get a free card.

I play it the same way OP did. It's not super likely that it gets checked around 6-way (especially with people left to act after a check by the pfr'er on this board) and though we likely lose some value we don't mind getting/giving a free card, there are two people behind MP3 but only one between us and they're more likely to call a continuation bet than coldcall + UTG+1 might not love the prospect of getting trapped between two aggressors.