why do i keep going out early? something wrong or unlucky?

[jaydoggie]

Tonite I played in a 20+2 tourney on pokerstars.

Less than 20 hands in, I get dealt KK in MP.
The only hands Ive played thus far were in the blinds.

Folds to me, I raise from 20 to 80.
1 LP caller.

flop comes 9Q5r

I bet 100.

anything wrong so far?

My oppenent raises it to 600.

I raise him to 1100. and he puts me allin for about another 250. leaving himself 100 in chips.

should I have just called for 600 and called down?

however he shows JTo.

the board paired on the river which kills 2 of his 6 outs, but one of his miracles still manages to hit on the river.

this happens to me all too frequently. am i playing bad or am i making the proper play and getting unlucky?

[Justaloser]

I think you played it pretty well. I raise a little more on the flop. T200 or so. (80+80+30from blinds puts the pot around 190).

If someone raised me that much, I'd only fear one thing. Trips. The fact that he bet that much on a straight draw means he probably busted out halfway through the tourney (if not sooner).

At this point, it's all-in or fold. Calling really doesn't do much. You're can't expect your hand to improve (although you'd like for it too), so you're either ahead or way behind.

FWIW, he played it very badly and sometimes that happens. If you feel you're busting out too early too often, maybe pull the aggressiveness back some. Try to win smaller pots.
Build your stack slowly. Be aggressive when you've got the nuts, but not all-in too much.

Good luck.

[jaydoggie]

yeah the problem is alot of these players play aggressively. beings i was first to act on the flop and i bet, he could assume i had an unimproved small pair, or AJ, AK, and he was just testing me. thats what i was really asking.

I assumed he had QJ, KQ, AQ, QT? And potentially a set, possibly AA. In most cases I was a mile ahead, in the other few i was alot farther behind.

Poker gets real frustrating when you cant win /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[FeliciaLee]

When you raise only 4x the BB, that is like a tease to most SNG players. That entices them to call. They say to themselves (wrongly), "hey, look at the pot I could get if I win this thing!" They call with very dominated hands, hoping for a miracle. Sometimes they get it.

I would suggest raising about 10x the BB. If they want to play a drawing hand, fine, but make them pay for it. Make them pay to see the flop. 80 chips out of a 1500 chip stack isn't that much to a bad player. But 200 chips? That makes them think twice.

Have you already beat the $5.50 and $11 SNG's? If you aren't beating them consistently, I would suggest moving back down. The $22 players don't seem that much better, on the surface, but when you get down to 3 or 4, they are better. Between the early bad beats and the later better players, $22 SNG's are harder to beat than $11 SNG's. I know, you get more out of the $22 in return, but if you aren't beating them steadily, you aren't getting a good EV at all!

[jaydoggie]

wasn't a sit&go, was a regular tournament with over 400 players. i dont play sit&gos frequently but ive played in 10 in the past month placed in the money 7 of those 10, and 5 of the 7 i took first.

however i keep busting out of the 300-400+ tournaments. and im usually getting called or calling with the best of it, and just getting outdrawn and i was looking for a defense strategy. and i guess my only defense is to go harder preflop. because once they catch their open ender, middle pair, or backdoor flush draw they cant help but throw the chips in the middle to push me out :[

[cferejohn]

Well, keep in mind that even the best player will usually bust out of a 300+ player tournament. All you can do is get your money in as a big favorite, which you did.

[cferejohn]

Risk 200 to win the dinky 1st level blinds? I don't really see the point. Sure it will probably work, but I'd rather make a smaller raise with KK (4xBB sounds about right), hope to get a caller and punish him, just as you did, except for the part where he sucked out on you...

[Jon Matthews]

Nothing wrong with winning the blinds on any level IMO, once you don't show your cards all the time it's good for the table image and that can be the deciding factor at a critical point in a later hand...

[Ignatius]

> [preflop and flop bet] anything wrong so far?

I would have made it T100 preflop and T200 on the flop, but your play is still OK.

> should I have just called for 600 and called down?

No way: Just move in here. His huge reraise on this flop usually means that he is drawing or overplaying top-pair. Twopair seems unlikely and most pls would tend to slowplay a set or at least raise less.

[mrbaseball]

It's the nature of the beast. The very large multi player touneys will have several "shot takers". Folks trying to double up now and fast.

You played KK fine and ran into a suckout. More often than not you will run into a painful suckout in these tourneys. The trick is to have enough chips to absorb the bad beats which means you will inflict some pain to others as well.

Whenever I have done well in one of these things (no limit) it is because I got off to a good start and could at least cover the stack(s) I was up against. In this same tourney ($20 stars monday) for example I knocked out a guy who had pocket AA with my pocket QQ but I had him covered 4 to 1. Bad beat for him? Sure! But that's what happens in these things. I got brutally knocked out myself at the last table. I'm in big blind with shortish stack (about 30K) and it's folded around the SB who has me covered about 3 to 1. He raised about 12K and I went all in with Ah Jh figuring it was a pure steal. He called and flipped up 9s 4s. Flop and turn were blanks but the river was a 9 and I was gone.

The key is getting into position to cover the other stacks because then the bad beats and suckouts won't end your day. Throughout the night I was involved in several all in confrontations in which I made some suckouts and got sucked out on. But the only one that hurt was the one I didn't have covered.

[slogger]

I think the only things I'd do differently would be to make a heftier pre-flop raise (maybe 250 or so)...and then bet the pot on the flop...which would be about 550-600 if the pre-flop raise was called. If he comes over the top there, you need to either go all-in or give him credit for two pair or a flopped set and get out (I'd go all-in). You need to be more aggressive in NL.

Otherwise, you played it fine, and there's not much you can do. Your opponent played badly pre-flop (but your mini-raise made his mistake less egregious) and badly thereafter. He tried to get cute with the flop raise (probably in part because your bets indicated weakness), and you should have popped him for the maximum at this point. This guy probably would not have folded for an extra 250 here, but if you're going to call his re-rearaise for your last 250 anyway, why not raise the full amount when you have the chance?

[cferejohn]

Well, I agree there is nothing *wrong* with it. Let me put it this way. If you only make a 10x BB raise with AA and KK, observant players are going to notice eventually and you won't get any play with these hands at all. Now, you can adjust by raising 10x the BB with other hands too, but again, people will eventually notice and when you get caught, it is going to hurt, and you may be so pot-committed you can't lay it down. I would pick a 'standard raise' (I usually use 4x BB in the first couple levels and 3xBB after that) and use that whenever there are no limpers. That way opponents can't tell a steal from a monster hand. Your milage may vary, but that's how I see it.

Also with a smaller raise and a caller you can more easily get away from your hand if you need to, since the pot is not so large.

[Sarge85]

This post has turned into a bit of rambling, but has really helped my thought process...comments welcome.


1st - I'd raise 5x the BB to 120 (probably doesn't drive him out - but you are indicating more than just a "big ace" with this kind of raise.)

2nd I think I'd bet the pot at this point. In my scenerio I guess that be right around 300-400T depending on blinds and if SB completed hard to say. ANY way bet the flop strong.

3rd He raises you - Hmmm...Did he slow play a small pair or QQ. my guess is he would have re-raised your small raise pre-flop if he had QQ - so small pair seems more likely. 99 or 55. Either way I think you'd need to put him on a set right now (even though we know the end result that he was on a draw) Since you are now thinking he has a set - re-raising would be/is a risky proposition here. Probably best bet is to lay the hand down, unless you know that he plays draws in this fashion.

[jaydoggie]

the only reason i disagree with automatically assuming he has a set is, and ive seen this alot of times.

preflop raiser bets the flop, if his headup oppenent has any draw/ any pair they are going to raise hefty especially with AQ, KQ, QJ, QT, A9, K9, T9. because they don't like to believe that the person who raised before the flop actually hit a flop, or hand is still good? no idea why probably just because they feel they get bullied so much, or everyone else is doing it?

anyhow the money is gone, and i got taken out again with a draw... KTs in BB.

flop K/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 9/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

SB bets T40 (stack at T700) starting chips T600.
I raise from 40 to 610.

He calls with A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 7/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

and wha la! no full house for me but guess who improves.

i kinda set myself up this time because probably 10 hands prior he bet with a paired flop and i put him allin and mucked my hand, told him i had 2 pair. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

oh well f me i guess im not a card player.