Easy Decision?

[MichaelOar]

10/20 Online game. Fairly tight UTG+1 raises, I reraise out of the CO with TT. Maniac SB calls and raiser calls.

Flop is: 7c 4h 3c

SB checks, UTG+1 bets, I raise, SB cold calls, UTG+1 3-bets, I call and SB calls.

Turn is: 5s

SB now leads out. UTG+1 calls, I . . .

Thanks,
Michael

[lil feller]

Saying he's fairly tight doesn't tell us enough. How's he play post flop? Will he cap preflop w/ AA-QQ? Would he 3 bet the flop w/out an overpair?

If the SB really is a maniac, so be it. UTG+1 either has an over pair or A-big of clubs for sure. My initial reaction would be to raise the turn. You may very well have UTG+1 beat (as he'd probably play 88 or 99 the same way, along with a big club draw) and SB might be donking a scare card cuz thats what maniacs do.

If you raise and the SB 3bets you really have to evaluate what sort of maniac you're dealing with, however, and that could be tricky.

I suppose there's merit in callling down as well, no way i'm folding for 1 bet to a maniac donk on a scare card though.

lf

Raising for value seems silly. Raising also doesn't afford you any real strategetic advantage in this situation. Folding against maniacs is bad. Call, then call again.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising for value seems silly. Raising also doesn't afford you any real strategetic advantage in this situation. Folding against maniacs is bad. Call, then call again.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does raising for value seem silly? I think it really depends on whether or not the SB will 3 bet without a straight. If he won't, raising seems easy. If UTG is on overs/flush draw or 88-99 we get him for an extra bet while he's drawing. Its also important to note that if the maniac is so maniacal that hero felt the need to call down after being 3 bet, that a maniac 3bet might fold out UTG's better pocket pair.

If SB leads the river and UTG+1 calls, do you over call. Clearly he has an overpair at that point, and he probably knows hero does too, how sure do you have to be that its 88 or 99, and not JJ+?

If the maniac has a straight good for him, but if we're putting 2 bets in here we should do so while giving UTG+1 a chance to fold. Maybe he's tight enough to fold JJ or QQ here.


lf

[BigEndian]

I would call down generally in the heat of the hand barring further action. This is a tough one though. Someone could convince me that my call-down is a bad thing.

But my reasoning is I don't have enough info on UTG+1 to guage how he's playing post flop and I could see us ahead of a few hands here: (99, 88, A7). Same goes for BB. I've made these folds before only to see the showdown and go, "huh?"

Edit: after reading other posts I also like raising and taking a free showdown - if you can fold to further action.

- Jim

[Jeffage]

I think I like folding the turn here. You're clearly beaten by one of them. Do you think solid UTG+1 is calling the turn with AK here? He likely has an overpair bigger than yours and the SB could easily have something like 66, a set of fives or two pair. I really don't like putting in any more money on the turn at this point.

Jeff

Assuming that SB will lead the river again and UTG+1 will call, you have to invest 2BB to call down. If you win you will win 15BB. Considering that SB is a maniac, I think you easily win 2 out of 15 times here, so I call down.

[Jeffage]

What do you put UTG on if he calls twice? Are you beating it?

Jeff

[TylerD]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like folding the turn here. You're clearly beaten by one of them. Do you think solid UTG+1 is calling the turn with AK here? He likely has an overpair bigger than yours and the SB could easily have something like 66, a set of fives or two pair. I really don't like putting in any more money on the turn at this point.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[golferbrent]

Can probably comfortably fold...

Another line would be raise on the turn and check the river U/I. If 3 bet on the turn then a fold is in order. Depends on your guage on the maniac... also, the Original raiser has shown significant strength throughout as well which leads me to believe that he has a pair similar to yours. I would be wary of him having J-J as this would be the line that J-J would take. He certainly couldn't cap preflop.

All in all I think a fold is probably in order on the turn and let the UTG pay off the maniac... no reason for you to pay off as well.

He will probably beat us, but I could imagine him having 88,99, AJc or AQc.
And then of course we could also catch a T on the river..