stars $60 aw fack i know i should fold but...

[bawcerelli]

i know i should have folded to back into the money, but i figured he was raising with just about anything, and i wanted a shot at first. how donk is this call? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!11

BTW, i'm calling kings and aces here for sure, QQ i was on the fence, everything else i fold.

okerStars Game #3207012028: Tournament #15868104, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/30 - 23:34:25 (ET)
Table '15868104 1' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: KungFuElvis (10540 in chips)
Seat 3: Jhood905 (225 in chips)
Seat 5: KaiserShosa (795 in chips)
Seat 8: gentleman55 (1940 in chips)
KungFuElvis: posts the ante 25
Jhood905: posts the ante 25
KaiserShosa: posts the ante 25
gentleman55: posts the ante 25
KaiserShosa: posts small blind 200
gentleman55: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gentleman55 [Qh Qd]
KungFuElvis: raises 2000 to 2400
Jhood905: folds
KaiserShosa: folds
gentleman55 said, "damn"
gentleman55 said, "i have QQ"
KungFuElvis said, "?"
gentleman55: calls 1515 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Ad 5h 2h]
*** TURN *** [Ad 5h 2h] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [Ad 5h 2h Ks] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gentleman55: shows [Qh Qd] (a pair of Queens)
KungFuElvis: shows [Ah Qc] (a pair of Aces)
KungFuElvis collected 4130 from pot
KaiserShosa said, "unbelievable"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4130 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 5h 2h Ks Td]
Seat 1: KungFuElvis showed [Ah Qc] and won (4130) with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: Jhood905 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: KaiserShosa (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: gentleman55 (big blind) showed [Qh Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
i know i should have folded to back into the money, but i figured he was raising with just about anything, and i wanted a shot at first. how donk is this call? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!11

BTW, i'm calling kings and aces here for sure, QQ i was on the fence, everything else i fold.

okerStars Game #3207012028: Tournament #15868104, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/30 - 23:34:25 (ET)
Table '15868104 1' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: KungFuElvis (10540 in chips)
Seat 3: Jhood905 (225 in chips)
Seat 5: KaiserShosa (795 in chips)
Seat 8: gentleman55 (1940 in chips)
KungFuElvis: posts the ante 25
Jhood905: posts the ante 25
KaiserShosa: posts the ante 25
gentleman55: posts the ante 25
KaiserShosa: posts small blind 200
gentleman55: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gentleman55 [Qh Qd]
KungFuElvis: raises 2000 to 2400
Jhood905: folds
KaiserShosa: folds
gentleman55 said, "damn"
gentleman55 said, "i have QQ"
KungFuElvis said, "?"
gentleman55: calls 1515 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Ad 5h 2h]
*** TURN *** [Ad 5h 2h] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [Ad 5h 2h Ks] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gentleman55: shows [Qh Qd] (a pair of Queens)
KungFuElvis: shows [Ah Qc] (a pair of Aces)
KungFuElvis collected 4130 from pot
KaiserShosa said, "unbelievable"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4130 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 5h 2h Ks Td]
Seat 1: KungFuElvis showed [Ah Qc] and won (4130) with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: Jhood905 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: KaiserShosa (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: gentleman55 (big blind) showed [Qh Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel ya. I'd call KK here too, mainly because I'd spike a set on the turn...cant do that with QQ here.

[bawcerelli]

yuk, the best i get is -1.7 when utg is set to maniac. though i think his range is wider than the maniac setting. anyhow, i donked this one. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[bawcerelli]

wow, looks like KK is almost a fold too, and AA is +EV but not by as much as i would have thought.

[Freudian]

Been there, done that, cursed my stupidity. But they are so pwetty...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, looks like KK is almost a fold too, and AA is +EV but not by as much as i would have thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think I could bring myself to fold KK here.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, looks like KK is almost a fold too, and AA is +EV but not by as much as i would have thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think I could bring myself to fold KK here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you should either. Surely his raising range is larger than the Maniac setting in SNGPT? It should be.

[bluefeet]

I recall almost this identical post this summer. Yeah, even KK is a stretch.

Another thing to consider - though 2nd certainly isn't in the bag yet, SB is down to 1.5bb's himself after posting. Given your good chance of getting HU here shortly, you're likely only a few hands away from taking your 'double me up to give me a shot at first' chance HU. With obviously a great deal more +ev hands. One double up now (still at a 2:1 disadvantage assuming we fast forward to HU) is only 1 less double up we'll need to assume the same position when we do find ourselves HU.

Yeah, sucks though. Close one eye, squint with the other - pretend it was Q4o

I call and never look back.

[Emmitt2222]

hey, learning noob here. could you guys possibly explain why folding QQ here is correct. I understand it is the bubble and you are calling and all-in, and I also know the calculator will tell you to fold, but could it possibly be explained in words for me why you would fold such a good hand? thanks alot.

[ QUOTE ]
hey, learning noob here. could you guys possibly explain why folding QQ here is correct. I understand it is the bubble and you are calling and all-in, and I also know the calculator will tell you to fold, but could it possibly be explained in words for me why you would fold such a good hand? thanks alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I don't fold here, and I'm not sure why. 2+2ers typically talk about playing aggro at the button, so I think it's safe to assume the UTG raiser has a wider opening range than people are considering.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 65.6024 % 64.94% 00.66% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 34.3976 % 33.74% 00.66% { 77+, A8s+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+, KQo }


I think I instacall.

[Emmitt2222]

well ninja, I may be a noob, but I am almost positive that the reason these seasoned players are calling for a fold is because of the money structure. I am almost positive that you cant merely run pokerstove to figure out this problem [like you could at NL ring]. But at the same time your pointing out that his pushing range is wide is valid which is why I would appreciate a clear explination of why you wouldn't call with a clear favorite here [most of the time against his range]. Good discussion is good.

[DDH]

[ QUOTE ]
hey, learning noob here. could you guys possibly explain why folding QQ here is correct. I understand it is the bubble and you are calling and all-in, and I also know the calculator will tell you to fold, but could it possibly be explained in words for me why you would fold such a good hand? thanks alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two reasons.

1. small blind 200
big blind 400

2. Jhood905 (225 in chips)
KaiserShosa (795 in chips)
gentleman55 (1940 in chips)

That's why. Yeah, KK, is still probably a call, but I think I fold QQ. But here, You want to be in the money, and second place is a pretty good bet, and once you're heads up, anything can happen.

Fold.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
hey, learning noob here. could you guys possibly explain why folding QQ here is correct. I understand it is the bubble and you are calling and all-in, and I also know the calculator will tell you to fold, but could it possibly be explained in words for me why you would fold such a good hand? thanks alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply because doubling up 70% of the time or whatever it does has less $-value than folding and letting one of the short stacks bust.

[Emmitt2222]

OK, I think I understand that enough. If I may ask another question; for the most part, when you are on the bubble and there are smaller stacks than you, are you mostly just waiting for them to bust and playing it very safe with what you call all-ins with? I'm sorry because I know this is very broad, but I'm wondering if there is at least a slightly easy answer, assuming that you are both under 5 M but you are ahead. Is this an answerable general question? Throw stones if not...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I think I understand that enough. If I may ask another question; for the most part, when you are on the bubble and there are smaller stacks than you, are you mostly just waiting for them to bust and playing it very safe with what you call all-ins with? I'm sorry because I know this is very broad, but I'm wondering if there is at least a slightly easy answer, assuming that you are both under 5 M but you are ahead. Is this an answerable general question? Throw stones if not...

[/ QUOTE ]

The best way to answer a general question is to answer it "generally". So generally speaking, you want to look at the gaps in stack value. In OP's hand, you see that the shortest stack has only 295 and the other one (~800??). This is why folding QQ may be correct. If the stacks were more like 16oo, 1400, 1300, and you have 1600, then folding QQ is wrong. So its not so much "who has the bigger stack" but its more about the stack differences.

[Emmitt2222]

Thank you. Slowly I will learn this crazy STT world. I have other questions about how much relative stack size matters, but I am almost certain that they are far too relative so I will try to look for other oppurtunities to ask. Once again, thanks for helping a n00b.