(Stars 1/2) Looking for a check-raise with quads

[KneeCo]

Fairly new at the table, UTG is very passive the Button is more active and has been lost quite a bit already.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks

[milesdyson]

or button will fear the ace and check behind with his 8/7/22/33/44/55/etc that he would have called a bet with. or maybe utg is trying to c/r you with his slowplayed T9 or 88 or 77 or A8 or A5 or A9 and you're missing out on countless bets with the nuts.

HMMMMMMMMMMM bet.

[stuartharris]

I have to bet this. No one with a straight draw or non-Ace overcards is going to help you out here.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
Fairly new at the table, UTG is very passive the Button is more active and has been lost quite a bit already.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks /images/graemlins/confused.gif???????? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


wtf? If I'm reading this correctly, you hit quad sixes on the turn. Was that a check for value, or do you not like money?

I think the button is still in the hand, and he's hoping the button will bet so he can check-raise.

I don't see why though. There is no reason to think that he will bet that card. Just got to bet and realize that hitting quads is lucky, but hitting quads when someone else hits a strong hand is really lucky (and doesn't happen often). Let them call at least and hope they have something.

[siccjay]

When you checked that river, god killed a kitten. Good job.

[Eeegah]

Dude I'm coming back from a month plus of not playing poker to tell you to bet this river. If the button folds he wasn't betting anyway.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude I'm coming back from a month plus of not playing poker to tell you to bet this river. If the button folds he wasn't betting anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome back!

[Eeegah]

Thanks; I'll tell my odd tale of not-much-woe in another thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Why did you check this river?

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you check this river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that chances were the river helped him, and even if it didn't my checking the Ace after how I played the hand might make him think I hated it enough to be ready to muck my hand to a bluff, therefore I figured I check, he bets, I check raise him.

So I checked, he bet, I check-raised him, and he called.

At first I thought, nice job kneeco, you got that extra bet out of him. Then I realized checking was a mistake, because if the river did help him he very well might have raised me.

That's the problem with checking here IMO, not that he might check behind but then he might raise a bet.

Ignoring UTG for a moment and just looking at the button.

Checking gets me 0 or 2 bets from him (more often 2).
Betting gets me 1 or 3 bets from him (not sure of frequency).

That's why I think betting was the play, precisely because I think the river helped him.

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
That's the problem with checking here IMO, not that he might check behind but then he might raise a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's contrast with a hand I had last night.

I have a weak flush draw in the BB, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on a 3 handed 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3-handed flop. I couldn't bet for value since there was just the two of us, but the only guy who limped (SB completed) bet both the flop and a blank on the turn.

River gave me my fifth diamond. I think this would have been the perfect opportunity to checkraise, as donkbetting the third diamond would have made it perfectly clear why I was calling down, and I could easily trap the SB if he's coming along.

Unfortunately I whiffed, but I don't think I would have won any extra had I bet out.

In your hand, you've been showing aggression on every street. You're apparently assuming that you can get a made flush to bet out or induce a bluff, but (a) it's pretty obvious you're not folding here and (b) the pair on board could make someone weary. If you'd been playing this strongly and suddenly stop at the third heart, he might suspect that you had a boat and were looking to trap (this would likely be MUBS but it's a possibility, especially if it were a weak flush). There's also the most likely scenario--he doesn't have a flush. He could have a busted straight draw, in which case he won't be helping you trap, or A-rag, which if he's dumb enough to call to the river with he'll likely be passive enough to be scared of the flush.

In summary, check-raising the river works best if you haven't been showing aggression previously and can trap the field, as your opponent wouldn't expect your bet but might fold outright if you donk. When you're going RAAAAAR to the river and wimp out, people start smelling rodents.

(FWIW villain in my hand had limped AKo and deservedly lost.)

[MrWookie47]

Aw, for the love of Pete.

Should we make it a forum rule that if you post a hand in which you hold quads or better and DON'T bet or raise at every opportunity, you must post at least two paragraphs of reads AND have an explicit EV calculation in your post showing you're correct?

[milesdyson]

how about we just insta-ban anyone who posts a quads hand?