10/20 JTo river value bet

[jason_t]

MP2 is 30/9/1.3 wtsd/w$@sd=32/60 after 500 hands and for the BB I don't have stats but he seemed bad.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: I am CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, I call, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">I bet</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (9 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">I bet</font>

[hobbsmann]

This looks standard to me. MP2 limps as many bad J's you beat as ones that beat you (J8/J7 vs QJ/KJ) and while it appears with his showdown stats he might not payoff 9s, your 'bad' read on BB makes this a value bet IMO.

[DeathDonkey]

I think this is a preflop fold (and I'm pretty damn loose) but I really like the rest.

-DeathDonkey

[sweetjazz]

I think this is definitely a check behind if the BB is not in there.

I like the thin value bet, as you will often get called by worse hands from the BB and we can't say for sure what MP2 will call with, but probably you'll either get paid off by a worse J or maybe even he will choose not to overcall with JT or QJ in this spot. The latter possibility is not that likely, but given his stats, it isn't totally farfetched.

So all in all, a bet could do a lot of good things. Also, MP2 may notice you value-betting a weak hand on the river and may end up paying off a river value bet from you later that he wouldn't have otherwise.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a preflop fold (and I'm pretty damn loose) but I really like the rest.

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imo, preflop is not close.

[QTip]

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I think this is definitely a check behind if the BB is not in there.

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Are we saying that it becomes a tougher call for MP to make since he'll most likely be overcalling?

[CardSharpCook]

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I think this is a preflop fold (and I'm pretty damn loose) but I really like the rest.

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imo, preflop is not close.

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Jason, if the PF isn't close, you should reexamine your starting values. For me, it is a clear fold as well and not one I would give a second thought to.

I don't like betting this river, but that IS close. There are many hands that have been scared into submission by the flsuh board and while you do get a lot of calls from worse hands, I think you may be surprised by a 2P hand that never raised. Let's not forget that the str8 draw either just got there or just gave someone two pair. This is a close one, but I check this down. Give me KJ/AJ, I think I'll bet it.

[brettbrettr]

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I think this is a preflop fold (and I'm pretty damn loose) but I really like the rest.

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imo, preflop is not close.

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I don't think its that close either, and I wouldn't play it.

[QTip]

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Jason, if the PF isn't close, you should reexamine your starting values. For me, it is a clear fold as well and not one I would give a second thought to.

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Would you please elaborate here?

I'm with JT on this one, especially if the players yet to act are not that aggressive PF. It seems like a mid-connector in position to some limpers is pretty nice. Wish I hadn't lost my old db, but I'm quite certain JTo was a winning hand for me in LP over my last couple hundred thousand...not that that means much.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is definitely a check behind if the BB is not in there.

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Are we saying that it becomes a tougher call for MP to make since he'll most likely be overcalling?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is possible, but I also think most of the value comes from BB calling with a worse hand and MP2 folding a missed draw (QT, KQ, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9, maybe even KT).

That can make betting right even though I don't think we beat half of the hands MP2 calls with. (Betting seems right to me even if we knew that MP2 won't fold a better or chopped hand.)

[DeathDonkey]

I'd like it alot more on the button and with passive blinds. It just isn't much of a hand and in this game some of the players in front will be limping in with dominating hands instead of dominated hands. What did Abdul say about poker players not surviving on straight draws alone? Make it sooted and I raise though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like it alot more on the button and with passive blinds. It just isn't much of a hand and in this game some of the players in front will be limping in with dominating hands instead of dominated hands. What did Abdul say about poker players not surviving on straight draws alone? Make it sooted and I raise though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...me too.

This certainly would depend on the quality of the limpers. I've recently started folding hands like QTo and such to good limpers here..especially those not raising AJo PF and so forth.

Do you feel the same about QJo?

I really, really like being connected /images/graemlins/smile.gif I find it hard to believe, though, that JTo is a losing hand here unless we have a decent chance of being raised.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a preflop fold (and I'm pretty damn loose) but I really like the rest.

-DeathDonkey

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Who the [censored] switched your brain with jason_t's?

Rob

[CardSharpCook]

We don't play JTo here because it doesn't have high card value, there is no flush possibility and to make matters worse, we are allowing the blinds to see the flop for free. I hate it when the blinds see it for free because that means that 38o is possible. QJo is actually a raise for me. It does have high card value and it has the delightful position of looking exactly like AK. Any board of AKQJ is good for a PF raised QJ. It is an easy hand to play. too. You get raised on a flop that includes A or K, it is an easy toss.

So that's my beef with JTo. No high card value, we can't create FE, it is hard to play, blinds get to look for free. JTs is a limp in this situation though.

[goofball]

No one has done anything, you should keep betting.

[BigEndian]

nh

- Jim

[stigmata]

I play JTo in LP, although it does depend who is in front/behind, and on table condition. It's been profitable for me so far...

I play it the same.

[paperboyNC]

You aren't getting any better hands to fold the river, but you will get called by a lot of worse hands. It's unlikely that either opponent is planning to c/r the river -- they would have likely done that on the turn with the flush and the 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif is close to a blank.

You'll lose occasionally to KJ and QJ, but should be good &gt;60% of the time.

[B Dids]

I fundamentally disagree that JTo is hard to play.

If you know who you're playing, no hand is that hard to play, it just might be hard to make money with it.

I'm not sure I call preflop often, but I do some of the time.

[MaxPower]

Have you guys ever heard of position?

[newhizzle]

looks standard to me

i think preflop is close