Marginal Hands from EP

Typical 10 handed 1/2 level; not overly tight or loose preflop, table average vpip 30. A couple of loose passive fish, a weak/tight table coach, yall know how it goes.

UTG is one of the looser players on the table, and doesnt show any respect to position.

SB is unlikely to defend to a raise without at least AJ, BB on the other hand will defend his blind with any 2 suited, broadway, or connectors.

You are sitting in UTG+1.

What do you do in the following situations?

[milesdyson]

full ring is such a fading memory. at this table i'm raising all the aces and folding all the kings here.

[benkath1]

limp
limp
fold
fold
raise
fold

I know a lot of guys don't like open limping, but at utg+1 I will with ATo. I'm not sure if I like this the more I think about it, but that's what I'm doing as of now.

[beset7]

I'm curious, ATo and AJo run pretty damn close but one is a fold for most people and one a raise. Is this arbitrary or do I just suck?

wow... all answers seem pretty definitive

i think AJo to ATo is a pretty huge slide down the slippery scale of kicker wars

[crovax4444]

I did mine based off of SSHE. I believe they say you can limp KJo from early.

I know I'm supposed to not rely on the book, but I do believe it's strong enough to at least limp

Crovax

I have fold on all of them. The only hand I would play would be AJo if I was first in, in which case I would raise.

[ajm36]

I do suck really badly, but I do not think AJo and ATo are that close. AJo is a fairly big winning hand for me and ATo is a marginal (in BB/100) for me--now this is DEFINITELY because I suck, but I can't suck so badly as to account for this difference (on second thought, I can).

[ajm36]

KJ offsuit is a pretty big loser for me as well, EXCEPT for 3 off the Button and better--here it is a marginal winner.

[mvoss]

I finally found the old thread with what I think is an excellent discussion on hands like these. Here it is. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2985810&page=0&fpart=all &vc=1)

[ajm36]

This is a great thread. I have recently been in the process of doing a hand by hand examination of my game--which hands are profitable, by how much, which are losers and by how much and which are marginal. I would like to point out that major "leaks" in your game occur around these "marginal" hands (at least for those of us who are dumb). If you look through your PT hand stats, you may be really surprised by what you find. You will find that your VPIP around these hands is fairly high (frequency) and your BB/100 loss is low, but your overall losses are high. You will be freqwuently overplaying these hands. For instance, KTo is such a loser for me from all but one position, I don't even play it anymore. I'm not going to magically learn how to play this hand now, my game is tremendously improved by just not playing this hand at all. I think this has something to do with this thread.

[tiltaholic]

i voted raise to all of them except KTo.
i hate KTo and it hates me.

i think my answers could change if i was there and saw who was yet to act behind me...how often they'd call 2 cold with a better hand, a marginal hand, etc...or how often they'd 3-bet with a better/marginal hand.

i'm going to try to hit the hands from memory:

AJo...first of all, this isn't a marginal hand. i take issue with that. but whatever. always raise this in an unraised pot at a weak table when you own the table, as you would.

ATo...ok, i agree with the marginalness of ATo. the way i play this hand changes dramatically based on my image and the table conditions. (same for A9o) i'd say that limping ATo in EP is probably the worst choice. Even worser after one limper. For confident postflop players and with confidence that you are restricting the field with a raise (ie, you're not going to get 3-5 cold callers) I prefer raising. When the table catches on to my sneakiness (usually never), I'll fold ATo from EP. Isolating a bad player (note, not a good player) who limps, with ATo is awesome and I love it.

KJo... tricky for a new player - see ATo. Currently, I'm folding it UTG and raising it UTG+2. Me no likely the open limp. Being that you have the sneakiness and asked about UTG+1, I'd say the answer likely is sometimes fold, sometimes raise (but I'm usually not folding, I feel confident I can play KJo postflop). And isolating a bad (not good) player with KJo is also the shizzle.

KTo - As mentioned previously, KTo is to me what reality is to foxnews. At a very weak table...I'll raise this from EP, but usually I fold. I'll isolate with KTo, but only when I'm confident I can get it headsup.

i think i got them all...

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious, ATo and AJo run pretty damn close but one is a fold for most people and one a raise. Is this arbitrary or do I just suck?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is because many charts promote AJo and disdain ATo.
(i think).

but, in fact one needs to draw the line somewhere, and for hands like AJo, ATo, and A9o (aka, pretty much a "top pair" kind of hand), we don't really want to encourage limpers behind us. thus, openraising is, imho, the better option (yes, we can have the should i limp AJo in EP discssion again...). so, we need to draw a line at some point where one hand is playable, and the next one down is a fold. for some people, in early position that line is between AJo and ATo.

depending on the table, I've opened with A8o, or A9o, or ATo in EP -- but in general at most tables, I don't think a "postflop unsure" player is hurt by putting the line at AJo/ATo as a general rule.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great thread. I have recently been in the process of doing a hand by hand examination of my game--which hands are profitable, by how much, which are losers and by how much and which are marginal. I would like to point out that major "leaks" in your game occur around these "marginal" hands (at least for those of us who are dumb). If you look through your PT hand stats, you may be really surprised by what you find. You will find that your VPIP around these hands is fairly high (frequency) and your BB/100 loss is low, but your overall losses are high. You will be freqwuently overplaying these hands. For instance, KTo is such a loser for me from all but one position, I don't even play it anymore. I'm not going to magically learn how to play this hand now, my game is tremendously improved by just not playing this hand at all. I think this has something to do with this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

in response to this, and also as a general comment i also want to say:

for the first 6-8 months after I started to play seriously...i never played ATo unless as a "steal" from CO or button. i only limped in with KJo from late middle position on, and always folded KTo.

That would be my starting condition from which I would suggest people learn to play these hands. My aggro comments in the thread are how I would play them now.

to ajm - i had that PT awakening with QJo. But remember that your positional stats are likely meaningless (and even for individual hands) you likely don't have enough instances to know for certain whether the $ results are meaningful.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious, ATo and AJo run pretty damn close but one is a fold for most people and one a raise. Is this arbitrary or do I just suck?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason ATo would be significantly different from AJo is due to the "probability of running into worse Aces" factor. So if a lot of people think AT sucks it's kind of a self-fulfilling thing.

Based on one of Eskimo's earlier threads I think AT and KJ are closer in value than AT and AJ. Of AT and KJ, both make TP3K with the top card, and making TPGK with the bottom card is vulnerable to exactly two overcards. A pair of A's is not vulnerable to an overcard as a pair of K's, but KJ is capable of making more than one straight and can flop an OESD.

KTo, on the other hand, I hate. It's bottom pair is vulnerable to three overcards, which are usually out against you in a table like this, and it also has the "who is playing worse kings?" factor. I can see someone very good at a table of terrible players being able to play it from EP but if you're in this situation regularly you could proably make more money moving up.

[shant]

I folded everything except AJo which I raised.

The reasons I have for mucking ATo is that there needs to be a cutoff. AJo is still +EV in EP, but on the same EV scale chart, ATo was slightly -EV from EP.

You can view that positional EV chart here. (http://www.tightpoker.com/poker_hands/ev_position.html)

I would raise ATs and even A9s here though.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

thankyou

[ajm36]

How many instances (or total hands played) would I need for this to be considered meaningful. I have 2 different time frames I use (i.e. all of my data and data from a specific date until now to represent "pre-tilt bender" and "post-tilt bender").

[mojobluesman]

Look at your small pairs like 22-66 that everyone used to encourage. They were a minor disaster for me even from late position let alone early position the way some people play them. Believe me, I wasn't playing them badly either. You just can't win with them unless the table is extremely loose and passive pre flop and somewhat loose and aggressive afterwards.

[ajm36]

For me, small pairs are not a problem. I am profitable with 22 and 55's on up--33 and 44 are VERY small losers. Not enough for me to stop playing them. I agree with you that these hands can become a major problem because of the tendency to overplay them form EP or MP and because people tend to call a single flop bet with them. If you restrict your playing of 22-55 to MP3, CO and the Button, this problem can be eliminated.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that these hands can become a major problem because of the tendency to overplay them form EP or MP and because people tend to call a single flop bet with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

In multiway pots, 66- is a set draw (which won't usually have odds to call the flop). In shorthanded pots, you had no business playing those hands from EP unless the hand in question is an aberration. So the only way autofolding if you don't make your set can be a leak is if playing the hands in the first place is also a leak.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
How many instances (or total hands played) would I need for this to be considered meaningful. I have 2 different time frames I use (i.e. all of my data and data from a specific date until now to represent "pre-tilt bender" and "post-tilt bender").

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not exactly sure..but often the actual explanation is something closer to:

i've run poorly with hand XYo or pocket pair ZZ combined with some poor play --- and the result is that hand XYo or ZZ is my biggest loser!

for any individual hand, such as ATo, you'll need hundreds of instances (maybe thousands) of it to determine, statistically, whether ATo is being misplayed or not. Now, if you're looking at it by position and you have 100 instances of ATo, then you're looking at about 10 instances for each seat which is nothing.

however, sometimes the numbers can point you in the right direction. for example if AA was losing money after 50 occurrances than its probably not a run of bad luck.

KTo bites bawls

[mojobluesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that these hands can become a major problem because of the tendency to overplay them form EP or MP and because people tend to call a single flop bet with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

In multiway pots, 66- is a set draw (which won't usually have odds to call the flop). In shorthanded pots, you had no business playing those hands from EP unless the hand in question is an aberration. So the only way autofolding if you don't make your set can be a leak is if playing the hands in the first place is also a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my point. Unless you are on the very rare loose passive table that gets a little more aggressive after the flop, you don't usually get the odds you need to both hit your set and overcome the times you put a ton of money into the pot when you do and then get outdrawn. I've been leaking with 22-55 no matter where I play them even though I tend to not play them except from late position when there was 3-4 limpers before me. The runs very counter to the advice that used to be given here to play them liberally from everywhere on loose tables.