($60) Two pair, meh

[durron597]

I am not pushing this preflop. So don't say it.

Opponent seemed to be playing pretty well, and wasn't overly abusing his stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t1500)
SB (t3635)
Hero (t1375)
UTG (t1325)
MP1 (t1150)
MP2 (t2850)
CO (t1665)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, CO folds, SB calls t200.

Turn: (t700) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t700) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t500</font>, Hero calls t500.

Final Pot: t1700

[johnnybeef]

looks good to me, you will minimize your losses when you are behind, and encourage a river bluff when you are ahead.

[pooh74]

If you're planning on calling that bet on the river, why not push/bet the turn? IOW, 500 is WAYY too much to call here if you're worried about the 6, so if you're not worried about the 6 why check behind the turn? If you do it to try and induce a river bluff, why not raise the river?

something seems off with your line. Unless you were thinking you wanted to induce a river bet then the quantity of it scared you?

explain yourself

[pineapple888]

Checking the turn looks kinda bad to me. I don't really want to be giving a card here. I'd take a shot for 325 or so. If he pushes, I look into his soul.

With your line, gotta call the river and hope for the best.

[pooh74]

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looks good to me, you will minimize your losses when you are behind, and encourage a river bluff when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

he'll have 500 left after the river when he is behind...that is pretty much both feet out the door.

[pineapple888]

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looks good to me, you will minimize your losses when you are behind, and encourage a river bluff when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? How can you claim both, when you don't know if you're ahead or not?

[durron597]

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Checking the turn looks kinda bad to me. I don't really want to be giving a card here.

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Why not? He either just got there with the straight and is trapping me by checking after I bet the flop, or I still have him crushed if he had a hand like K8. The only hands I really don't want to be giving free cards to are ones with tens and pair + jack hands, which there aren't that many of after the flop.

[pooh74]

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Checking the turn looks kinda bad to me. I don't really want to be giving a card here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? He either just got there with the straight and is trapping me by checking after I bet the flop, or I still have him crushed if he had a hand like K8. The only hands I really don't want to be giving free cards to are ones with tens and pair + jack hands, which there aren't that many of after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you mean, but bsides giving draws to your very vulnerable hand, you are missing value when you're ahead. Not only this, what do you do on the river? You are not really minimizing losses when you have to call AI anyway...I think you're bringing too much river mentality to the turn.

[durron597]

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If you're planning on calling that bet on the river, why not push/bet the turn?

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There are plenty of pair + 6 hands that may have check-called the flop and no worse hand is calling my push.

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IOW, 500 is WAYY too much to call here if you're worried about the 6, so if you're not worried about the 6 why check behind the turn?

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I am worried about the 6, I used 2/3 of my time bank before calling.

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If you do it to try and induce a river bluff, why not raise the river?

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Because what bluff hands call me? He'd be insane to call even ~500 more with just A8 or whatever.

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something seems off with your line. Unless you were thinking you wanted to induce a river bet then the quantity of it scared you?

explain yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, even if he has a 6 I have 4 outs to fill up, that's one reason to check behind. I wasn't sure what I was going to do on a blank river, except that it was either going to be check-fold or check-call.

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he'll have 500 left after the river when he is behind...that is pretty much both feet out the door.

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No, it really isn't, I've come back from worse, and I'd rather have 500 chips left than 0.

[pineapple888]

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Checking the turn looks kinda bad to me. I don't really want to be giving a card here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? He either just got there with the straight and is trapping me by checking after I bet the flop, or I still have him crushed if he had a hand like K8. The only hands I really don't want to be giving free cards to are ones with tens and pair + jack hands, which there aren't that many of after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, in addition to the cases you metion, I just feel like any higher card with a piece of the flop (Ax) could take Villain's line if he thinks you are FOS on the flop, and I don't want to be losing to a higher two pair. But maybe that's MUTB.

In any case, I have a made hand, and I just want to try to take it down now with a board that's scary to villain as well.

[durron597]

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looks good to me, you will minimize your losses when you are behind, and encourage a river bluff when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? How can you claim both, when you don't know if you're ahead or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the turn, I lose my whole stack when behind (unless you think I should bet 500 and fold to a checkraise). And if I've got him beat he's folding the turn anyway, but if I call a river bet then those worse hands pay me off sometimes.

[pineapple888]

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looks good to me, you will minimize your losses when you are behind, and encourage a river bluff when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? How can you claim both, when you don't know if you're ahead or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the turn, I lose my whole stack when behind (unless you think I should bet 500 and fold to a checkraise). And if I've got him beat he's folding the turn anyway, but if I call a river bet then those worse hands pay me off sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, on the turn, bet 325 and then you have a decision to make if he pushes.

On the river, I guess I'm just not real confident that he's bluffing very often. But your read could very well be better than mine.

I bet 350 on this turn. I don't see him continuing with anything but the straight and you'll find out for sure depending on his action. Checking puts you in a tough spot on the river that I wouldn't want to deal with.

[cha59]

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looks good to me, you will minimize your losses when you are behind, and encourage a river bluff when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking. NH /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bigt439]

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looks good to me, you will minimize your losses when you are behind, and encourage a river bluff when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really see another way.

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If you're planning on calling that bet on the river, why not push/bet the turn? IOW, 500 is WAYY too much to call here if you're worried about the 6, so if you're not worried about the 6 why check behind the turn? If you do it to try and induce a river bluff, why not raise the river?

something seems off with your line. Unless you were thinking you wanted to induce a river bet then the quantity of it scared you?

explain yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we like to lose a lot of money or a little money when we're behind?

Do we like to earn some money or absolutely no money when we're ahead?

Please explain how betting the turn doesn't cost us money when we're ahead and cost us money when we're behind.

[tigerite]

You shouldn't push this pf, anyway, in my opinion, so no way would I say it.

I think you played it pretty well. Probably very close to the line I would take myself.

[patrick dicaprio]

this is a tough situation on the turn. what does he think of your hand on the flop? if i am in his shoes and i see this flop and you were the BB he can easily have a great many hands if he is the type to call with Ax here just because he doubts you. given that he is "playing pretty well" lets say he has to have at least a draw here with a pair something like 67 or maybe A5 or something along those lines. is he is playing well and he sees you out of teh BB make a significant bet he isnt calling with too many hands that arent happy to see an A or a 9. it is tough to see any hands he has that you are ahead of on the river you got probably the two worst cards you could here.

given that you checked the turn behind him you probably have to call the river now holding your nose. i probably would have made a small bet on the turn maybe 300 or so and his response will let you know what to do.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

one way: if by betting 300 on the turn he raises big with a straight and you can fold saving 200 from what you then had to call on the river after you check.

Pat

I would have played it the same probably folding to river bet like 2/3 times without any reads. The way it was played we got to see our FH outs on the river for a chance to stack a 6 or induce a bet from a hand we have beat, and as it happened he fired an above avg. amount imo but a lot of the times the bet will be more like 350 so we get to showdown with the same chips lost as the turn bet option. Also if villain is sneaky at all he could c/r turn with less than a 6 forcing us to make a big mistake folding.

[pooh74]

I said "push the turn" to prove a different point. To show that if you plan on calling a huge bet on the river anyway, you might as well push yourself on the turn ...(assuming villain would push the river). I agree that pushing the turn would be absurd as its a WAWB deal, but sort of thought, "hey, I hate the river line so why not do something equally bad myself...at least I'm the aggressor"

And having t500 in a stars SNG at 50-100 is only barely better than 0 with this many left.

See Patrick's answer below for another reason why betting the turn can be better.

[bigt439]

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And having t500 in a stars SNG at 50-100 is only barely better than 0 with this many left.


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Is this another one of those "people said something bad, so I'll say something equally bad" situations?

[pooh74]

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And having t500 in a stars SNG at 50-100 is only barely better than 0 with this many left.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this another one of those "people said something bad, so I'll say something equally bad" situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

everyone seems to like this line and I definitely understand the reasons and think they're valid. Just pointing out that everything isnt all roses playing it this way, and I dont think its necessarily best.

Someone said in this thread "its good because you max your gains and minimize your losses". Well, why not bet the turn and fold to a raise...you can bet less than 500 (btw you might be facing a bet of more than 500 on the river here often times) and get away if raised all-in. If he has a hand like TPGK etc...the river might get you more value and you can rest a little easier about the straight.

And to be honest, I prefer having the EXTRA 500 in my stack the times I'm ahead in this hand and being out completely when I lose. If its a 50/50 prop on being ahead, then Ill double up half the time and be in much better position and the other times I'll have room for a new table.

[pooh74]

Also if villain is sneaky at all he could c/r turn with less than a 6 forcing us to make a big mistake folding.

This reasoning is nulled by the fact that he could do the same thing on the river, where, actually, its probably more effective.

[durron597]

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Also if villain is sneaky at all he could c/r turn with less than a 6 forcing us to make a big mistake folding.

This reasoning is nulled by the fact that he could do the same thing on the river, where, actually, its probably more effective.

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No it isn't, because I check behind here 100% of the time.

[pooh74]

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Also if villain is sneaky at all he could c/r turn with less than a 6 forcing us to make a big mistake folding.

This reasoning is nulled by the fact that he could do the same thing on the river, where, actually, its probably more effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't, because I check behind here 100% of the time.

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good point /images/graemlins/wink.gif