TT heads up. I hate these spots.

[Stealthy]

Vilain is a TAG 13/7/3 after 70 hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Misplayed ......... yes I know. Should I simply bet/fold turn, bet/fold river once the overs come?

With those stats I would have deffinitely bet/fold the turn.

The example in HPFAP says C/C with QQ when someone 3-bets you. I wouldn't see too much difference here. Your flop/turn line looks inconsistent in that you flop 3-bet thinking you have the best then called down once the most likely overcard hand hit. Either C/C all the way (with maybe betting the river if no overcards appear along the way) or bet/fold to a raise on the turn.

Against this type of opponent I c/c the whole way, and I don't think check/folding when the king hits is too weak.

[jt1]

cap pre-flop. you easily have the best hand and it makes post flop easier

by just calling him preflop, you made your flop bet look like a silly bluff

a bet/fold won't work because due to heros preflop and flop play, it now looks like he has trips. Villian won't raise.

you're stuck. I'd just bet/fold, bet/fold. Nothing you can do about it. Hope he has a smaller pp

an argument can be made for check calling turn and leading river. it night keep a small pp from folding.

frankly, i don't think it matters. You're toast but he's not going to let you know that

good hand to post, though

[Stealthy]

I only cap pre-flop here against LAGs and maniacs (I do differentiate the two). Is this a mistake not capping against TAGs as well?

[Nick C]

We only have 70 hands, but it seems Villain possibly is on the tight side for a TAG. And he's probably not interpreting your raise from MP2 as a particularly light raise or a steal, so I think assigning a 3-betting range of AA-TT and AK/AQ makes sense here. (I think Villain's stats say we shouldn't include the AQ, but it's only 70 hands, and the fact that Villain is on the Button versus an MP open-raise argues for including AQ.)

Anyway, here are some combos on the flop:

AA-JJ = 24

TT = 1

AK/AQ = 32

If we can toss hands like 88/77 into the mix, then we're doing okay. But I'm not at all sure we're getting 3-bet by 88/77 by this Villain, and if we're not, then we're not really in such great shape versus Villain's range on the flop, since he's got more outs when we're ahead than we have when we're behind. (In fact, if we discount AQ, and maybe we should, we're not even a favorite to be currently ahead.)

Anyway, I would probably just check-call the flop.

On the turn, bet-folding is the consistent follow-up to your flop play, I guess, but Villain might now just continue calling with his JJ, if that's what he's got (and I doubt he's folding it). We're really hoping for AQ (or an underpair) at this point, and for Villain to have AQ, he would have needed to auto-raise the flop. A lot of TAGs will do that, though, so we can't rule it out. Still, I think simply check-folding the turn is something to consider. The preflop 3-bet, the flop raise, and the turn bet (once it comes) all make AQ somewhat less likely than other hands.

Anyway, I guess I'm rambling. If I took your flop line, I would probably follow up by bet-folding on each of the next two streets, without liking it much.

[jt1]

first off, i thought this was HU.

but you have to think you TT is good against a TAG. If you're good and he thinks that you're good then he'll 3-bet you with AJo and even KQ. If he thinks your a little wuss then he'll 3 bet you with AQs or better. And if your an unknown then he should be 3-betting you with AQo or better including 55 or better. (perhaps justt 66 or better)

Point is you beat a lot of hands and by capping you reveal nothing. You could scare him into folding overcards on the flop. Or you could confuse him into calling down with 88.

TT and QQ are way different because there are two more overcards that can hurt you.

Revewing the hand, I think you bet/fold the turn. If he just calls then you can check fold the river. It's the King that should scare you.

Villians stats are tight weak but 70 hands is a small sample size.

[Nick C]

I think just calling the 3-bet preflop is fine.

I don't think we should assume this TAG has a wide 3-betting range versus you.

Even if we did know he had a wide range, I'm not sure we'd want to clue him in that his pocket 6's were way behind preflop.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think just calling the 3-bet preflop is fine.

I don't think we should assume this TAG has a wide 3-betting range versus you.

Even if we did know he had a wide range, I'm not sure we'd want to clue him in that his pocket 6's were way behind preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much agree with all of this. It's safe to put Villlian on AQ or better.

I'd check raise the flop if I didn't cap preflop. Then, I'd check fold the turn.

A flop cr shouldn't scare off 66. It looks like a bluff with KJ or a mid pp. He'll call and check any turn through. If the turn isn't an A, K, or Q then obviously you'll lead, hoping to force AQ to fold.

In this case, Villian has tight weak stats &amp; your position is still kind of early. You can honor his aggression and bow out on the turn.

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]
Misplayed ......... yes I know. Should I simply bet/fold turn, bet/fold river once the overs come?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

Will

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I think just calling the 3-bet preflop is fine.

I don't think we should assume this TAG has a wide 3-betting range versus you.

Even if we did know he had a wide range, I'm not sure we'd want to clue him in that his pocket 6's were way behind preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. I'm still kind of thinking this through.

Actually, capping preflop and then leading the flop versus 66 would have one advantage, which is that it would make it a lot more difficult for Villain to steal from you on the flop if an ace (or king) shows up (and an ace or king is more likely to flop if neither of you holds AK/AQ than if you do).

The main reason I prefer just calling the preflop 3-bet is that, based on the sketchy 70 hands worth of information we have, a worse pocket pair doesn't seem all that likely for Villain.

On the other hand, if he'll release QQ/JJ if you cap and an overcard to his pair flops, then that's another potential advantage of capping preflop (especially if he'll also let you know right away when the ace or king on the flop hit his AK, when that's what he holds). But most 2/4 players don't give up their big pairs easily.

[Stealthy]

I would expect an overpair to my tens, jacks or queens to never fold at $2 $4 if I am able to represent real strength with a pre-flop cap. Even Tags show these hands down and often a lot worse if they can do so for one bet on every street. This all comes down to whether I am ahead on any street and how to get away with the least amount of pain if I am not. And folding confident that I was beat.

[shark6]

I'd just call the 3-bet PF because we can put him on AQ+, so at best your a slight favorite to a big dog in this hand. I think you need to see a flop and go from there.

I'd check/raise that flop because of comments made by Nick C. It's statistically quite possible he's on overcards here and you're ahead. He would be bad to not charge him to draw to his 6 outs. If you get 3-bet, it would be tough to fold, but I think you'd have to because you only have 2 outs now.

Then bet/fold the turn because the K came, which is really a bad card because it eliminates a lot of the overcard hands that would have 3-bet the flop. I'd bet out because there is a chance you are still ahead and you may get JJ or QQ to fold.

[McGahee]

On these kinds of flops with this kind of hand after getting 3-bet I generally check/call the flop and donk any non A/K turn - anybody have any thoughts on that? Anyway, that turn card sucks and I think you have to fold.

[Stealthy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think just calling the 3-bet preflop is fine.

I don't think we should assume this TAG has a wide 3-betting range versus you.

Even if we did know he had a wide range, I'm not sure we'd want to clue him in that his pocket 6's were way behind preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much agree with all of this. It's safe to put Villlian on AQ or better.

I'd check raise the flop if I didn't cap preflop. Then, I'd check fold the turn.

A flop cr shouldn't scare off 66. It looks like a bluff with KJ or a mid pp. He'll call and check any turn through. If the turn isn't an A, K, or Q then obviously you'll lead, hoping to force AQ to fold.

In this case, Villian has tight weak stats &amp; your position is still kind of early. You can honor his aggression and bow out on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the situation and the way I sometimes play a big hand I like the check-raise the flop line here after not capping. When I do take this line with bigger hands to mix up my play a bit it very rarely gets 3 bet and allows me to maintain control.

In this hand the turn and river kill me completely and his 3 betting range is all over that King unless he had a lower PP to start with which is not likely.

[jt1]

Let me just say that QQ, JJ will almost never fold that turn or any flop, no matter how you play pre-flop. Nor should they fold.

I don't think you want to fold to a 3-bet on the flop as many AK players, including me, will 3 bet you depending on who they think you are and how big the pot is and how many people are in. But sometimes TAG players forget to consider all the facts and make a mistake. I think 3 betting AK would be a mistake here, but an understandable one, especially if villian multi-tables.

FWIW, I like calling the rr preflop because it's HU

check raising the flop (rather than check calling) to 1)take advantage of your pf call and 2) to get AQ to fold the turn

bet/fold the turn

check/fold that river if you're still in

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
but you have to think you TT is good against a TAG. If you're good and he thinks that you're good then he'll 3-bet you with AJo and even KQ. If he thinks your a little wuss then he'll 3 bet you with AQs or better. And if your an unknown then he should be 3-betting you with AQo or better including 55 or better. (perhaps justt 66 or better)


[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with this. This guy's PFR is 7? I know it's a limited sample size, but mine is 11 and I'm certainly not 3-betting an unknown MP player with KQ, AJ, 66, or any of that other junk. Since the majority of 2/4 players don't open their raising standards all that much if at all from MP, it's best to assume a passive opponent until shown otherwise.

[Nick C]

What I'm about to write assumes non-ace and non-king cards are falling on the turn and river, instead of the actual cards:

If you don't feel committed to a showdown, then a flop checkraise followed by a turn lead is something to consider. However, if I took this line and got 3-bet on the flop, I would probably check-fold the turn unimproved (at 2/4, versus this opponent, anyway). If Villain 3-bet the flop and then checked behind on the turn, I wouldn't be sure what to do on the river, but I'd think there was a good chance I was up against overcards.

If Villain called the flop checkraise and then popped the turn, again I would fold versus this opponent.

Basically, I think putting in a lot of flop action and then calling down is kind of spewing, versus this opponent's probable range.

Check-calling the whole way is another option. So is a check-call, check-call, bet line. And a check-call, bet-call, check-fold line is something else to consider. I'm not sure I like this last line so much at 2/4, since I doubt Villain is popping the turn for a free showdown with pocket 7's. But the check-call, bet-call line does at least deny a free card on the turn to AK/AQ, if Villain is inclined to take one.

At 5/10, I'm having trouble developing a standard line in spots like this, because 5/10 players tend to 3-bet lighter preflop and also sometimes play very aggressively with overcards postflop. All the standard lines have potential drawbacks, and mixing it up against TAGs is probably important. Versus players who are very aggressive preflop and postflop, lines that involve folding in the face of continued aggression are dangerous, but at the same time I feel I'm missing value sometimes with the defensive "go ahead and bluff, I'm going to showdown" approach I sometimes take. (Part of my problem is that I worry that TAGs will be familiar with the check-call, check-call, bet-fold line and will exploit it by auto-raising the river.)

In any event, being out of position against a TAG who has represented a big hand is difficult.

[ErrantNight]

bet/fold turn

[Buckmulligan]

I kind of like a flop check/raise; it gives us a pretty good idea of how much villain likes his hand.

bet/fold turn