flopped bottom two in huge pot. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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sweet wicking action

11-30-2005, 03:10 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

It is my first orbit at this table, and I have no reads. Pokertracker numbers indicate the table isn't too odd, a few TAGs, a few donks, and a few rocks.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, BB caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

I realize that raising PF this hand wasn't all that standard, but I just felt like seeing what would happen. Get a feel for the table. And then I thought I had the odds to call when I got 4-bet. Given the size of the pot, I thought everyone would be coming in after me. Was I right about that? How is my line otherwise? I think it was pretty standard. Should I have folded to the 4-bet?

Flop: (24 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (19.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button folds, BB calls.

River: (22.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 24.50 BB

TheHip41

11-30-2005, 03:17 PM

preflop, whatever, i've done worse

flop, I would bet the flop hoping someone would raise and get 99 or TT or JJ to flod. Once you do get raised, I'd just call.

You played this flop like you have a set of 7's, not bottom two pair. This board, vs. this many ppl, there are about 15 cards on the turn I don't want to see. If a Q falls you are done. If a dimaond falls, that could be trouble. If a card bigger than an 8 falls, that bad for conterfeiting purposes.

I'd just call the flop raise. This turn card looks ok, as long as no one has AQ, A8, or A7, you should be in good shape. I'd just donk the turn, and if you get raised again, I'd call a safe river card. ie, no A or Q.

11-30-2005, 03:18 PM

I'm betting this all the way just like you did. Other than MP2 who raised you on the flop and folded on the Ac turn, you got a bunch of limpers on a diamond draw, BB with a pair of something, probably 8's.

Scotch78

11-30-2005, 03:19 PM

Suited connectors like cheap, multiway flops. Raising anywhere except to steal from the button is just bonkers. Calling two cold afterwards is also bonkers. Then you just keep making mistakes on the flop. You have a vulnerable bottom two in a HUGE pot where tons of turn cards could kill your hand (any /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or card higher than a 9 could easily beat you). Wait until the turn.

Scott

WhiteWolf

11-30-2005, 04:22 PM

PF raise is obviously wrong. Save "seeing what happens" plays for when you are in late position.

Calling the cap is fine. No one else is folding, so you're getting the big multiway pot 87s likes, although for a higher price than normal.

Although there is something to be said for waiting until the turn to get aggro here, I don't think that will allow you to protect your hand (one of the big reasons for waiting for the turn). You have a good hand, the big pot means lots of folks will have trouble getting away from their hand, giving you a good overlay. I would have stayed on the gas pedal exactly the same way you played it.

Hope you took it down.

11-30-2005, 04:26 PM

I think I flat call the flop raise and c/r pretty much any non Q turn card.

Buckmulligan

11-30-2005, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I flat call the flop raise and c/r pretty much any non Q turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

A checkraise may be obvious and awful. After our flop action, this could get checked through.

Buckmulligan

11-30-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You played this flop like you have a set of 7's, not bottom two pair. This board, vs. this many ppl, there are about 15 cards on the turn I don't want to see. If a Q falls you are done. If a dimaond falls, that could be trouble. If a card bigger than an 8 falls, that bad for conterfeiting purposes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I think the best line if we want to hold for the turn is to check call the flop and donk the turn, keeping the pot small.

11-30-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I flat call the flop raise and c/r pretty much any non Q turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

A checkraise may be obvious and awful. After our flop action, this could get checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying to not 3-bet the flop, just call then go for the c/r. Don't know if that changes you opinion, it might not.

EDIT: Just based on the preflop/flop action it is likely that MP1 has a big overpair/AQ/QQ and will bet the turn

Buckmulligan

11-30-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm saying to not 3-bet the flop, just call then go for the c/r. Don't know if that changes you opinion, it might not.

EDIT: Just based on the preflop/flop action it is likely that MP1 has a big overpair/AQ/QQ and will bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if we check call the flop this isn't a bad line.

11-30-2005, 05:43 PM

preflop: why do you raise in early middle position with this hand it should be a fold and in later position a call in a multiway pot.

flop: well youre a lucky sucker but you can still lose to so many cards and youre playing your hand like its unbeatable.
after just reading to the flop i put your oppenent on some hands that they probably could have.
MP2: /images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gifK
MP3: /images/graemlins/spade.gifA/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ
Button: /images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif9
BB: /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif10
agains this field youre just 34% chans to win after the flop. It could be worse if youre up to a dominated hand like QQ or Q8 or a little bit better but never more than 40% and you play it like you flopped a set of queens or eigths.

I would bet the flop and just call it after it been raised. You never know whats gonna come turn/river so no need for 3-betting.

After the ace on the turn i would slow down. Its very probably that any of your apponents has TPTK on the flop and they just got two better pair so just calling here would be fine, dont think you could scare away the flushdraw anyway.

After the 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the river i might lead out since it probably didnt help anyone.

WhiteWolf

11-30-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
preflop: why do you raise in early middle position with this hand it should be a fold and in later position a call in a multiway pot.

flop: well youre a lucky sucker but you can still lose to so many cards and youre playing your hand like its unbeatable.
after just reading to the flop i put your oppenent on some hands that they probably could have.
MP2: /images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gifK
MP3: /images/graemlins/spade.gifA/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ
Button: /images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif9
BB: /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif10
agains this field youre just 34% chans to win after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm 34% to win in a five-way pot, I'm jamming it as fast and as hard as I can.

damaniac

11-30-2005, 06:29 PM

If that were the case, it might also be an argument for waiting for the turn, but I also think our equity is much higher on average.