400bb overbet (complete LC brag)

[thatpfunk]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($152.57)
UTG ($248.27)
MP ($35.75)
CO ($61.75)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($799.50)</font>
<font color="#C00000">SB ($1247.97)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $19</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $12.

Flop: ($42) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $60</font>, SB calls $35.

Turn: ($162) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $50</font>, Hero calls $50.

River: ($262) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $70</font>, SB calls $599.50.

Final Pot: $931.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Ad Ah (two pair, aces and threes).
Hero has Kc Ks (full house, kings full of threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $931.50. </font>

[fathertime]

sweet

[TheWorstPlayer]

I know this is an LC post and okay, nice. But from the few recent hands you've posted, I think you play all of your hands too slow. This was definitely played too slow. You should not have to make such a big raise on the river. And you would have kicked yourself really hard if another heart fell on the river.

[thatpfunk]

twp,
stacks are quite deep and villian is quite the wide open player. him having a turned flush was not out of the question.

if i raise and face a push on the turn i have to gouge out my eyes.

im curious as to what line you would take.

(and i would also say that your generalization is unfounded simply becuase it is based off of two hands, both of which were played after 400+ hand sessions with the villians)

[TheWorstPlayer]

My comment was not unfounded. It was, as I clearly stated, founded on the few recent hands you've posted. In any case, in this hand, let's start with the fact that on the flop, with the nuts, against what is very likely to be AA or AK you raise $35 in a $92 pot. As you say, there are deep stacks. Money that goes in on the flop gets multiplied on future streets since the pot is larger.

You say that he is a wide open player so he could have a flush draw on the flop. He could also have AA/AK for sure. He could probably also have an underset. Anything else is most likely folding to a raise. So it doesn't matter what size raise we make in that case. But against AA/AK/underset/flush draw we sure as hell want to raise more than 1/3 pot!

[beavens]

isnt the new Bad Beats, Brags &amp; Variance forum perfect for this post? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

Despite the title, there is actually incredibly important content in this post.

[xorbie]

3-betting PF is definitely a consideration. Would have sucked considering results, but yeah.

[wdeadwyler]

Agaisnt a known, I dont mind the smooth call preflop, I am c/r a NON Ace flop. As played, I would JACK THE FLOP UP BIGTIME. 80 to go.

Turn is tough. If he lead bigger, I would have no idea what to do. As played, the turn is confounding. Its hard to know where you are. He could have AA and be pricing himself in with heartdraw, in which case you want to raise, or he could have the nuts, in which case you would want to call.

Because you didnt a)3bet preflop (which is ok from time to time, but 80% not ok), or b) Raise more on the flop, i think you have a tough decision. As played, I GUESS I would just call the turn and see what he did from there, but you could make a strong case for raising the turn.

River seems like a clear value raise.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I would JACK THE FLOP UP BIGTIME. 80 to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a $55 raise in a $92 pot. You guys need to really think more about your raise sizes. I would make it $125 to go and then push the turn or $100 to go on flop, pot turn, push river.

[thatpfunk]

twp,

[ QUOTE ]
anything else is most likely folding to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is way, way off. i honestly don't know what else to tell you besides for me, hands become very table and opponent specific. if i have been trading pots back and forth with a player for over 5 hours there are going to be some potentially big changes from ABC play. i can explain that i have routinely been stealing his blinds and that he has routinely been reraising from the blinds and going through these same motions with KTo and Ax, but thats why I put LC on the post.

Anywho, I appreciate your feedback and I enjoy theorizing if the money could have gotten in better. If I feared that slowplaying was really effecting my long term results then I would look into it.

Be Healthy,
Funk

[wdeadwyler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would JACK THE FLOP UP BIGTIME. 80 to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a $55 raise in a $92 pot. You guys need to really think more about your raise sizes. I would make it $125 to go and then push the turn or $100 to go on flop, pot turn, push river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yea. Youre right. Thats better.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I definitely know what you are talking about with the dynamic between the two players making a big difference. But your comments in this thread and your line just don't seem consistent of a solid game plan.

On the flop you raise small, I guess to show weakness so that you will get loose calls from underpairs or whatever. But then you're afraid to raise the turn because he might have the flush. If this is going to be your feeling on the turn, then you need to raise the flop bigger before the flush can come and kill your action.

This hand just doesn't add up for me. If I were in a disbelieving relationship with someone, that would make me want to raise BIGGER on the flop to make it look like I'm bluffing and so that I can raise big with my crap hands and try to actually get him to lay something down rather than raising small with my monsters so that I have to raise small with my bluffs which will never get him to lay down.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting PF is definitely a consideration. Would have sucked considering results, but yeah.

[/ QUOTE ]
with regular stacks i 3-bet next to never. i don't think it accomplishes anything in these games.

w/ deepstacks against a loosey-weirdo who thinks i am pushing him around i can't see 3-betting being good because i have to call this players push.

[ahnuld]

[ QUOTE ]
I know this is an LC post and okay, nice. But from the few recent hands you've posted, I think you play all of your hands too slow. This was definitely played too slow. You should not have to make such a big raise on the river. And you would have kicked yourself really hard if another heart fell on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling that bet is pretty standard. Raising is suicidal.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
if i raise and face a push on the turn i have to gouge out my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you're perfectly willing to stick it all in on the river when you don't improve...

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it isn't. Not against this guy. But calling is fine. But then raising small on the flop is not.

[ahnuld]

We have no read, how can you say not against this guy. I make it 100 to go on flop, call that turn bet. Whoops, while im typing I realised he reraised us preflop and if he isnt a donk, he wouldnt do that with AQ suited so he cant have a flush (unless he thought we were on a steal). So I retract previous statement and agree with TWP becuase we are up against abc here. Raise turn.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i raise and face a push on the turn i have to gouge out my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you're perfectly willing to stick it all in on the river when you don't improve...

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying hypothetically i would? i don't get your post.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
We have no read, how can you say not against this guy. I make it 100 to go on flop, call that turn bet. Whoops, while im typing I realised he reraised us preflop and if he isnt a donk, he wouldnt do that with AQ suited so he cant have a flush (unless he thought we were on a steal). So I retract previous statement and agree with TWP becuase we are up against abc here. Raise turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

he has showndown reraises PF with KTo, etc

[Black Aces 518]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i raise and face a push on the turn i have to gouge out my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you're perfectly willing to stick it all in on the river when you don't improve...

[/ QUOTE ]

Check the river card again, hearts are no longer good.

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would JACK THE FLOP UP BIGTIME. 80 to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a $55 raise in a $92 pot. You guys need to really think more about your raise sizes. I would make it $125 to go and then push the turn or $100 to go on flop, pot turn, push river.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe this is something that deserves its own post, but i struggle with "pot size raises". The basic problem for me is, it's not the same as a pot size bet. Let's say i lead for $20 into a $20 pot... villain has to fold only 50% of the time to make this a break even play (disregarding any show-down value). Nothing new here. But lets say villain acts first and he leads for $20. Pot is now $40, so a pot size raise from me is $80 (20 to call his bet, 60 for the raise). I've now put in $80 to win $40... villain has to fold 67% of the time to make it break even.

So basically your hand has to be much better to make a pot size raise than it does a pot size bet. Only very rarely do you want to make a pot size raise without a big hand because villain needs to fold much more often, and when he doesn't you've really inflated the pot.

This creates a problem for me. It's fundamentally wrong to only make a certain type of play when you have a strong holding. Whether opponents at my level notice or not, only making pot size raises with a strong hand isn't optimal. How can i resolve this? Either occasionally make pot size raises with weaker holdings also, or raise a smaller amount with strong holdings. I usually go with the second option, making what amounts to a 1/2-2/3 pot size raise. So when villain bets 20 into a 20 pot, i might make it 55 or 60 instead of 80. I feel more comfortable doing this with flops i've missed ("snapping off" a continuation bet) because villain has to fold less often to make it correct. Now I'm raising the same amount with weak and strong holdings, which seems a lot closer to optimal.

yes? no? go back to 25NL?

[yvesaint]

well thats just the thing, you usually have better hands when youre raising then when youre betting ....your betting range should be a lot wider than your raising range.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Your problem is that you are comparing raising to folding. Let's say that you rule out folding because your, say, draw is too strong to fold. Now run the calculations for a pot sized raise versus a CALL and you will see that it works out exactly the same as for a pot sized bet.

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Your problem is that you are comparing raising to folding. Let's say that you rule out folding because your, say, draw is too strong to fold. Now run the calculations for a pot sized raise versus a CALL and you will see that it works out exactly the same as for a pot sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

100NL 6-max effective stacks $100. hero is CO, villain in BB is aggressive and almost always makes a continuation bet.

Hero raises to $4, BB calls.

Flop ($9) - 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

Villain bets $7, Hero... ?

i want to make the same play here with AK as i do with 77. A pot size bet is $30, but i'm more apt to make this $22.

[Big_Jim]

BB Can't really continuation bet here since you are PF aggressor.

This is a pretty good flop to slowplay 77.

You can probably fold AK.

Try another example.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Big Jim,

LOL. Nice post. I agree. I flat call 77 and fold AK.

TWP

[DoomSlice]

This may work against a crappy player, but it won't work against any of us... I hope /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Build a big pot earlier!

[teamdonkey]

so what about 10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, or QQ?

[Big_Jim]

There is no continuation bet in the example you give, as villian is not PF aggressor.

The other problem with the example you give is that there are no draws, which makes it more appealing to bet less.

I think that I call with both TJ and QQ there, raising some percentage of the time.

Of course, knowing what villian will lead into PFR with on a flop like this, and what he will call with, is pretty crucial.

[Phoenix1010]

I don't think your flop raise is so bad if you think he'll play back at you with less than AK here, or if you think a large raise (a potsize raise over a halfpot bet will always be seen as a massive overbet) will make him slow down and perhaps eventually fold AA whereas a small raise will entice him to come over the top. However, if you're concerned about a flush draw, as evidenced by your flat call on the turn, you need to raise more on the flop. In fact, the way you played the turn is the worst part considering the rest of the hand. Are you going to flat call a nonpairing river too? A free heart falling on the river destroys you, you can only call small bets, and you can't bet for value. Need to play this hand faster on the earlier streets, just in case the river doesn't give you the second nuts to play with.

[wdeadwyler]

[ QUOTE ]
Whoops, while im typing I realised he reraised us preflop and if he isnt a donk, he wouldnt do that with AQ suited so he cant have a flush (unless he thought we were on a steal)

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that you cant reraise with AQs here. Its not my standard play, but Ive been known to rr opens with hands like AQs, esp if I think hero (if I am villain is raising light). Also, do you NEVER reraise with hands like 10js, 78s?? I dont think its out of the realm of possibility for villain to have a flush in a hand like this (esp if villain bets big on the turn)

[wdeadwyler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i raise and face a push on the turn i have to gouge out my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet you're perfectly willing to stick it all in on the river when you don't improve...

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying hypothetically i would? i don't get your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, reraising the turn and facing a push and reraising river all in are two different things. If you reraise and are pushed against, you are more likely to be behind (Bayesian reasoning) whereas if you reraise river all in, there is no (additional) reason to think you are behind because you have garnered no additional information (besides his super weak lead which I have disregarded in my anaylsis, though it does tell us more about his hand).

Still, the two situations are quite different.

Edit: I see now river made him a boat, for arguments sake let us say that it did not.