Playing Semi Big Pairs

[Festus22]

Playing $0.50/$1, I was dealt QQ, JJ, TT (twice) and 99 in the span of 12 hands. I thought the hand generator was broken. Results:

QQ - 2 bets to me in SB, I raise, 4 callers.
Flop: 9,8,4 rainbow. I bet, all call.
Turn: Ace. I bet, one fold, 3 call.
River: 2. I bet, one fold, 2 calls. Lose to A-4o.
Called 3 bets PF with A-4o? I type the old "NH" and move on.

J /forums/images/icons/club.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif - 6 callers to me on the button, I raise, 5 call.
Flop: K /forums/images/icons/club.gif ,T /forums/images/icons/club.gif ,9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif . 1 bet, 3 call, I call.
Turn: 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . Same bettor, raise, fold, fold, I fold.
River: 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . Turn raiser had J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ,7 /forums/images/icons/club.gif for a straight.

TT 1 - UTG raises, 2 callers, I call, SB folds, BB calls. 5 to the flop.
Flop: K,Q,4. UTG bets, call, fold, I fold, BB calls.
Fast forward - UTG wins with pocket K's.

TT 2 - 3 callers to me in MP, I ponder but only call, 2 more callers. 6 in.
Flop: Q,5,5. Check, bet, raise, fold, I fold.
Fast forward - Raiser wins with 7-5s (river was a 7 for the boat).

99 - Bet, raise, 2 callers, I call in CO. SB calls, BB folds.
Flop: A, K, 8. Bet, PF raiser calls, preflop caller raises, I fold.
Fast Forward - PF raiser wins with A-Q.

The winning hands were A-4o, J-7o, K-K, 7-5s and A-Qo. It appears that since most LL players will hang around with just about anything, QQ through 88 are just too vulnerable to overcards and draw outs to rate them as strong as some suggest. Just like the lower pairs, it seems like you pretty much have to make a set or get REAL lucky that the QQ or JJ holds up on their own.

Should I de-value these hands in the no foldem game and maybe bump up A-xs (or even K-xs)? At least with the A-xs, you pretty much play the 4 flush flop or fold.

[Ed Miller]

Should I de-value these hands in the no foldem game and maybe bump up A-xs (or even K-xs)?

What you've learned is that big pairs don't fare well in multiway pots when multiple overcards hit the board. Hopefully you knew that before you played these hands. These pairs are huge hands because they often win unimproved and they make monsters when they do flop sets. When you are playing a 6-way pot, you only need to win 17% of the time to show a profit preflop. You will win significantly more often than 17% of the time with these pairs... probably more like 25% of the time on average.

Just because you lose with these hands far more often than not doesn't make raising unprofitable. You are gambling... taking 5-1 pay on a 3-1 shot. It's still gambling, though... many poker players want to raise only when they have a sure thing... or close to it. That's how the passive players play... and it isn't winning poker.

[Dynasty]

I think you'll have fun going through these simulation results. QQ and JJ are the 3rd and 4th best hands against large fields.

http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm