$55: AJs - Play a TPTK Hand That's a Disaster with a Non-Master

[downtown]

This was a tough hand for me. Line check, if you please on the following:
1) pre-flop
2) flop
3) flop, facing a c/r and cold-caller

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB (t1295)
BB (t1330)
UTG (t1540)
UTG+1 (t785)
MP1 (t1110)
MP2 (t835)
Hero (t895)
CO (t890)
Button (t1320)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t50, CO calls t50, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t350) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t400</font>, Button calls t400, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls t200.

Turn: (t1550) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t445 (All-In)</font>

[durron597]

If the limpers are loose and not tricky I would push preflop. 175 chips without showdown sounds appealing and I don't want to see this flop 7 ways with my stack size.

Pre flop i would be raising to get marginal hands out with AJs or maybe even pushing to take the 175 already in the pot.

Post flop seems ok, though maybe a higher bet to get rid of the TONS of draws on this board and once you are raised in this limped pot you should know you are most likely drawing to a non diamond ace if not completely dead.

You are pot-committed on the turn...i think it is a good push here with TPTK, but i think you are beat here more often than not....reload/reenter.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
If the limpers are loose and not tricky I would push preflop. 175 chips without showdown sounds appealing and I don't want to see this flop 7 ways with my stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have a good enough read to read the limpers as loose and not tricky. Of course if I want to raise, I would tend to agree that all-in would be better than not. It just seems like too much with AJs though; AQs I would feel much more comfortable with.

[zambonidrivr]

any arguements for folding preflop? given the # players in the hand, how hard would the flop need to hit to go forward for your stack. There are a lot of holdings that beat you here. I vote for shoving preflop or folding.

[Melchiades]

After CO minraises and the button cold calls, I'm done with this hand. CO minraises half his stack here. He isn't going anywhere.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
any arguements for folding preflop? given the # players in the hand, how hard would the flop need to hit to go forward for your stack. There are a lot of holdings that beat you here. I vote for shoving preflop or folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if I knew that there would be limpers behind me or of course if I acted after them, I would push/fold it. Of course, my call gives those limpers better odds, but I think if I presented the hand like this...:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB (t1295)
BB (t1330)
UTG (t1540)
UTG+1 (t785)
MP1 (t1110)
MP2 (t835)
Hero (t895)
CO (t890)
Button (t1320)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero ????

... fewer responses would advocate a push here. In many ways, this hand does remind me of those play a hand with the masters hands in MTT, as the first few streets could go a different way.

[zambonidrivr]

you are raising with a marginal hand as well. i think pushing is a much better option

I'm limping preflop. Isn't pushing AJs with ~18BBs a bit stretched? Four players yet to act after hero too..

Ditto. I'm most worried about button here smooth calling a set. Too many limpers for that to not be a serious possibility... or just someone being cute with QQ.

Chuck it.

The question is preflop though. Limbing AJs seems fine of course, but went to [censored] with the callers behind you. If blinds are scheduled to go up before your next posting, push it.

[microbet]

Preflop, I would not push. I think calling is good.

On the flop I probably lead for 250. The rest is hard. I was going to answer before, but I keep thinking that it depends on villians.

[pineapple888]

Pre-flop, a limp seems fine. Raise to 300 if you must raise, but IMHO there are too many people behind to act. I see absolutely no reason to push.

Post-flop, I bet a little more (275), then let it go if I get a raise followed by a call. Calling behind is the worst move because you are pot-committed at that point, so you should push if you don't fold.

My two cents.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
If the limpers are loose and not tricky I would push preflop. 175 chips without showdown sounds appealing and I don't want to see this flop 7 ways with my stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Also, I think that the flop is push / fold territory after CO's raise and button's cold call. As weak as it feels, I'm leaning toward folding. Those mini-raises usually mean something and it ain't good. If you're not up against a set, there's still a ton of cards that can beat you and nobody's going anywhere.

Again, I like the push pre-flop unless the limpers appear to be tricky for the reason that Durron gave.

[J-Lo]

ALOT of responses for a push, this is excessive! Raise to 175 and play some poker (if the limpers are loose or weak)... Many to act behind you, and AJ is a marginal hand. I'd rather fold than call, and raise than fold... Don't be afraid to play some poker, and don't be afraid to lose a few chips or all of 'em, if u feel your hand is best. But DON'T push 900 chips when if u get called it will be with a hand that has you TOTALLY DOMINATED, CRUSHED.

Independent question: For the people advocating a push, would u push in this position if the blinds were higher (50/100), if it was folded to you? I'd rather push with a limper than if no one had limped...

Back to hand:

If u raised preflop, go broke on this flop. You didn't so, After u get min raised and cold called, fold. What's up with the stop n go? what was the purpose-- better hands won't fold, will worse hands min raise, cold call 1/2 thier stack? I know there are many donks on party, but i don't think they play this bad where u will get payed off here...

[tigerite]

I would not push pf here, and I'm definitely one for doing that a lot. AQs, yes, push. AJs, nah.

I like your line a lot, maybe betting a little closer to the pot. The min raise and call are pretty [censored]. Probably a fold unless you have some good reads on them.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
What's up with the stop n go? what was the purpose

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I could get a something like a pair + diamond draw to incorrectly fold the turn. In retrospect, even this hand was clearly not folding, but it was one of those situations where I felt like pushing a non-diamond turn had slim FE where immediately pushing did not. This was my quick and initial reaction, it was also probably a mistake due to playing too many tables at once.

You say you don't have reads, then don't you use PokerTracker + PA hud? You'd have all these nice little stats on them.

And is it crazy to think that you could either push or fold ont he flop after the raise and the call? Because you won't have much fold equity on the turn anyway, and it could be so that the raiser has JT/QJ/KJ and the caller a flushdraw (or perhaps a straight draw). If you really think they have a better hand than you, fold.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
You say you don't have reads, then don't you use PokerTracker + PA hud? You'd have all these nice little stats on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do have these. They were unknowns, so I guess if you have to have a read then I assume you're a donk if you're an unknown. IIRC, no villain had remarkable tight or loose stats, or I would have noted it at the time.

[FlyWf]

PF: Limp. Obviously.

There was no check raise on the flop, just a regular minraise. And you're obviously boned on the turn, I don't think you're scaring off the flush draw or a set, some of the straight draws just got there, and is there anything else they could have? I have no idea where you get away from this hand as played, but I think you're drawing very thin on the river.
Check on the flop, maybe? Field is big, I doubt it's getting checked around. Yeah, I like that more. You can raise, call, or fold as necessary on the action.

[avisco01]

In my view, pushing preflop is certainly an option. The limpers in front of you would have likely raised with hands that dominate you, and may not have as much to call you with should you push as you're all-in bet is a huge threat to their stacks. You have a hand that very well could be best right now and can take down a nice little pot without a flop. Taking inflection points into account, I think its time to get more aggressive with weaker than normal hands, and AJs qualifies in my mind. However, being that you didn't push and were raised on the flop after showing strength, I think the flop is a clear push or fold scenario. I'm not calling here as another 200 basically ties you to the pot regardless (so needless to say I like the push on the turn as it is your only option at that point). You've already put in half your stack by the turn, so calling the flop raise does no good. Get out while you can losing only the 250 you put in already, or push on the flop. Being that the pot is much larger than your stack, pushing with TPTK on the flop is probably your best move in my opinion. Make a stand now, you're laying 645 to win a pot that is currently 1300. Keep in mind that folding on the flop will leave you with 645 chips, which practically will put you in a desperate situation as the blinds are increasing rapidly. Thus, I think pushing preflop would have been best. Once you bet 200 on the flop, a quarter of your stack, I think you in effect tied yourself to it and had no other option than to push all-in behind the reraise and cold call. Will you have the best hand here? Its not likely given the action, but not entirely unlikely either. However, at this point, you basically have to hope to get lucky as your stack is reaching desperate shape. Just my two cents.

Preflop, I would raise. you obviously couldnt know that the 4 people to act after you were all going to limp into the hand...but who wouldnt with so many limpers, the odds give you no choice. Your hand is solid, not great, but worth an investment of a raise to 150 imo. but, more importantly, it would go a long way in defining your hand and help you find out who is serious and who is prospecting. investing an extra 100 chips at this stage does so much more for you than waiting until after the flop. moreover, if someone pushes over the top of my raise here, i have no problems laying this hand down and losing my 150 chips.

tough call on the rest of the hand. TPTK has taken down many people in here i am sure...tough hand. But, because you did not protect it by raising preflop, i personally would play TPTK very cautiously...i think i would be in teh same position as you if i played this hand without the preflop raise. i hope TPTK was good!

Why would you say limp obviously?

Just asking because I think limping is a mistake...but am definitely open to my opinion being wrong. i realize AJs is a marginal hand, but with so many limpers in the pot, you gotta figure either CO and/or button will at least call, and that will force SB to complete and BB to check, if not raise. The odds are just too good to pass if everyone limps. I like to take the action to them and reduce the number in the hand while better defining the hands. Plus, that raise could force out the CO and button, giving you position on the table...if the hand was raised preflop, i pity the players facing the bet you will make post flop...i think you take it down there or have all ur chips in with TPTK praying it holds up

[FlyWf]

Well, I'm an idiot. A weak-tight idiot, at that.
But...
Because if you get called you are going to end up allin more or less no matter what flops. You're putting ~1/4 of your stack in with a decent raise, and I don't think you're taking it down before the flop, and with one caller the pot is going to be like 70% of your stack.

You can't spend chips paying for information when you've got &lt;20BB.

i agree with you to an extent...but, i think a 150 raise isnt crippling you and it gives you so much more chance at winning the hand than limping. i would rather push after raising preflop with the flop we saw than to limp and try to see where i stand by investing more chips into the hand...at the 55s, im willing to test the water and allow myself to get a little shortstacked while makign stabs at the pot...all those here should be pretty good at pushing preflop in +EV situations...

[tigerite]

A raise to 150 does absolutely nothing here, except get everyone to call and give you a massive pot on the flop.

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont like the limp here. you stack is just the wrong size to limp hoping to get the flush and if you are hoping to get an A or J then you should have raised preflop. the problem with this line of course is that you may be commiting yourself if you get reraised. with the right crowd i can agree with calling.

on the flop i think if you are going to go all in on the turn you may as well just push on the flop. there are a whole lot of draws out there on the flop that you may still have the best hand and your turn bet is way too small to do anything so you have no fold equity. by just calling here preflop i think you got yourself into a tough situation especially if this is a tough crowd.

Pat