OT: STTs vs MTTs

[45suited]

As some of you know, I've been away from STTs for the most part for about 3 months now. I just started playing them sporadically and while still successful (small sample size) I have noticed that the games (22s) do not seem quite as soft as they used to be. I don't have any hard data, but it certainly seems that there are more players hanging around in level 4, for example.

Another thing that I've noticed is a very large amount of players making mini-raises from say level 3 on when they are UTG. Perhaps they've noticed that your typical good player does not call many raises?

Anyway, mostly just to get a break from SNGs, I recently started playing MTTs. (I have long been playing cash games in order to mix things up.)

I guess the purpose of this post is to generate a bit of discussion. I think that the pendulum might be swinging away from STTs as the 'easiest' way to make poker money. I have found that the play in MTTs is generally horrible and that my STT experience has come in very handy. Again, small sample size, but I have cashed in 4 out of 5 MTTs ($11 - $33 buy ins) played, just making my first final table and taking home $430 for a 3rd place finish in a lowly $5 speed tourney.

Has anyone else noticed that a) STT players seem to be getting a bit better and b) that cash games and / or MTTs might be the wave of the future for us?

[raptor517]

variance. mtts are way more time consuming and swingy. i play a ton of them and have done very well, but time constraints keeps me on sngs. the games arent getting tougher. they are probably about hte same. maybe ppl are a bit tighter, but you can adjust by opening yer game up. mtts are def profitable. play whatever works for you. there will be no 'wave of hte future'. holla

[Big Limpin']

yeah /images/graemlins/frown.gif

For one to say that STTs have been fundamentally "solved" would be an exaggeration, but we are moving in that direction im sure. There is a recipe for playing "well enough" to beat the vig in 800 chips, and sadly, more and more of "us" playing more and more tables. *Somebody* has to be paying our profits (and the vig), and that pool of money is getting more diluted amongst more good players playing more table hours. Add to this that the "fish" cant help but unwittingly imitate what they see others doing. When in Rome, and all that. I dont mean they are getting to be better poker players, just that they see everyone being rocks early/maniacs late...not hard to catch on.

I can see in a couple years only the very best players beating a 10% vig at any significant stakes. And that makes me sad. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

So...the wave of the future? Well, my hope is a new format of poker develops, so everyone starts from scarch again, and the more astute players who frequent poker forums learn how to master that form while the fish are still plentiful and so so so bad (like im sure the very first onlne STTs 3-5 years ago were a cakewalk. But, as for todays games, i dunno, i think limit ring is pretty static, water thats found its own level. I dont think you can just learn a few tricks /fundamentals and suddenly find yourself making a ton of $...it takes alot of work/time, and all the current limit ring players have a big headstart on us. NL less so (and we are somewhat better versed in that structure), but im not so confident i could ever make my SnG income from NL ring, not without much work invested. That leaves MTTs and i think that will be where the easiest $ is (i want to move into more MTTs). I feel this way because:

1) tournament poker is more dynamic, and affords mathimatical minded players more room for BIG edges (as STT bubbles are/were).
2) The expectation of a small loss, chance of a big score is condusive to more long term donators than ring games.
3) its harder to multitable multis than sng (i presume, not much expierience there, but you couldnt 12 tabe, could you?)
4) winrates much greater than vig could be maintatined. Poker sites will hold 10%vig kicking and screaming until the STT games die. A 50%-100% ROI is not unheard of for top MTTers. Greater time investment per, so ROI% is not really a good stat for comparison, but what simportant is that the MTT games can get MUCH tougher before you have negative expectation (assuming you are quite good).

BL'

*much of this is opinion, so call me out on things i may be making incorrect assumption on /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
there will be no 'wave of hte future'. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone used to paly 5 card draw.
Then 5-stud
Then 7stud
Then lowball variants
Then limit ring
Then NL ring
Then MTTS
And just recently STTs
(this may be out of order, but you know what i mean)

Every step here was a "wave of the future", and i bet before each of them, some guy was saying"theres not going to be any new wave" For you to say that is naive.

i dunno about the STT's getting harder, but as Limpin said, MTT's are gonna be easy and profitable for.... ever.

The "big prize" is going to attract people all the time. People expect to lose in them, so it's not going to turn them off when they dont win every time. Also, a fish wins once, which happens all the time, and they're hooked.

I dont really think online poker is going to die out, or become unbeatable w/ rake/vig. but if somehow it does, i still think MTT's will be $$$.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]

Has anyone else noticed that a) STT players seem to be getting a bit better and b) that cash games and / or MTTs might be the wave of the future for us?

[/ QUOTE ]

While you were away I asked if anyone thought that $10's were getting tighter, everyone said they still crush them... and it was just me.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there will be no 'wave of hte future'. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone used to paly 5 card draw.
Then 5-stud
Then 7stud
Then lowball variants
Then limit ring
Then NL ring
Then MTTS
And just recently STTs
(this may be out of order, but you know what i mean)

Every step here was a "wave of the future", and i bet before each of them, some guy was saying"theres not going to be any new wave" For you to say that is naive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno if you have numbers for these claims. But for example, NL ring is as popular as ever. The degenerates are naturally attracted to the short-handed ring games.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Every step here was a "wave of the future", and i bet before each of them, some guy was saying"theres not going to be any new wave" For you to say that is naive.

[/ QUOTE ]

to say that there definitely will be is naive. im not wrong here. there is little more to the future growth of poker than NL ring, mtts, sngs, and limit ring games. thats it. omaha sure isnt gonna take over. holla

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every step here was a "wave of the future", and i bet before each of them, some guy was saying"theres not going to be any new wave" For you to say that is naive.

[/ QUOTE ]

to say that there definitely will be is naive. im not wrong here. there is little more to the future growth of poker than NL ring, mtts, sngs, and limit ring games. thats it. omaha sure isnt gonna take over. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, Texas Holdem is the greatest poker game that could ever be devised by anybody, now or in the future, Raptor said so.....

Man.. This is just a great variation of poker, as is seven card stud. The advantage here is that it is simple on the surface, so everyone thinks they can play it.

Just because it is popular does not make it the best poker game.

The only reason Texas Hold'em is popular is because everyone - good and bad - thinks that they can beat everyone else.

Of course there will be something else in the future.

Even Hoola-Hoops went out of style. Who would have thought that would ever happen?

-MG