Preflop question regarding KJ, please post opinion

[lilkunta2]

Playing in a loose 5/10 holdem game. i come back form a break and have to post in 7th position. i look at KJ of hearts. 3 people have limped in front of me. my turn, raise or check? why?

[TripleH68]

Raise.

You have position and would like to buy the button.
Knocking out the blinds isn't a bad idea either.
Your hand has high card, straight and flush value.
Spending an extra small bet preflop is no biggie.

[einbert]

Hi lilkunta,

Check.

You're not getting the blinds out and in a game this loose and a pot this large people will happily coldcall behind you. Keep the pot small and try to hit the flop hard, if you don't hit the flop you can easily check/fold. This hand is going to frequently be reverse dominated on the kinds of flops where it flops two overcards and you don't want to bloat the pot which might induce you to take a card off when you shouldn't, in addition to decreasing your postflop expectation against these loose opponents.

Happy holidays,
einbert

[lilkunta2]

excerpt from MLHP page 49...

Q: You are in the cutoff seat with KJ of clubs. Three players limp in. What do you do?

A: call. King-jack suited is normally not a raising hand. You want to see a flop, but not pay a high price to do so.


this situation is very similar to mine.

[einbert]

Hi lilkunta,

I didn't realize your hand was suited. I would raise since it's suited, check if it's offsuit.

Happy holidays,
einbert

[lilkunta2]

einbert,

would you also say you disagree with the example in MLHP? imnot saying that every example in that book is infallible, i just remember this particular one when this hand came up when i made my decision. there are still 6 people behind me (11 handed game) any of which could easily have a hand better than mine.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
einbert,

would you also say you disagree with the example in MLHP? imnot saying that every example in that book is infallible, i just remember this particular one when this hand came up when i made my decision. there are still 6 people behind me (11 handed game) any of which could easily have a hand better than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I would disagree with the example in the book. In that spot, particularly against loose limpers, I would raise every time.

The suitedness of your hand adds a lot of robustness and additional power in a multiway pot (this aspect wouldn't be so important if the pot were HU or threeway). So you don't mind making the pot larger since you are going to flop good draws a decently bigger portion of the time than if your hand were KJo.

You might find that twoplustwo posters, also twoplustwo authors, will frequently disagree with other poker authors' opinions on how to play certain hands. I'm sure the book you quoted is a great learning source, and I would say the difference between raising and calling here is fairly small in terms of EV. But ultimately it is my opinion that raising is better.

Good luck,
einbert

[Entity]

Raise. You have the best hand, great equity, position, and initiative. Raising is fun and winning big pots is funner.

Rob

[Entity]

einbert,

Here I was, getting all ready to crucify you, when I realized you thought the hand was offsuit. Damn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

happy holidays,
Rob

[ QUOTE ]
(11 handed game)

[/ QUOTE ]

These still exist?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
excerpt from MLHP page 49...

Q: You are in the cutoff seat with KJ of clubs. Three players limp in. What do you do?

A: call. King-jack suited is normally not a raising hand. You want to see a flop, but not pay a high price to do so.


this situation is very similar to mine.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ciaffone and Brier are wrong. This is a very clear raise. (As per usual, they don't seem to have a completely sophisticated grasp of how equity is distributed in certain situations... That lack of mathematical insight I think is there biggest failing, and probably explains a fair percentage of the tight-weak advice they give. The book is quite good with those exceptions.)

[lilkunta2]

akron ohio

I think its a pretty standard value raise. KJs plays well multiway. You might knock out players behind you to gain better position and take out a blind or two while you are at it.

I think 4-5 handed is optimal and most profitable for KJs.

Easy raise.

I think this is deffinitely a situation where you should raise.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
excerpt from MLHP page 49...

Q: You are in the cutoff seat with KJ of clubs. Three players limp in. What do you do?

A: call. King-jack suited is normally not a raising hand. You want to see a flop, but not pay a high price to do so.


this situation is very similar to mine.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ciaffone and Brier are wrong. This is a very clear raise. (As per usual, they don't seem to have a completely sophisticated grasp of how equity is distributed in certain situations... That lack of mathematical insight I think is there biggest failing, and probably explains a fair percentage of the tight-weak advice they give. The book is quite good with those exceptions.)

[/ QUOTE ]

First, MLH is great book, but it's geared to middle-limit holdem. In the book's example, they are assuming that the limpers are smarter than the average low-limit player, and would be limping in with the types of hands that dominate you if you weren't suited.

Second, there is another key difference between the OP and the book's example: you have posted. You get all the advantages of raising for the same price as a call. Generally, I'm raising any hand I would have called with had I not posted.

equity equity equity. when you raise, you will be getting at least 3:1, maybe 4:1 or more on your extra bet. in order to make this a break even bet, you would need to have 25% preflop equity. You have 35% equity assuming your opponents ahve 25-35 vpip. this is clearly positive ev.