Remind me please---30/60 Hand

[JasonP530]

30/60 on Party. I have lost in this spot a few times tonight, so I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing.

UTG--42/12, will call any number of bets when he calls the flop

Button--No stats, but has played a lot of pots so far, and been pretty passive

SB--42/14/1.6--bad player, and a agressive(but not insane), from what I can tell.

All relevent characters limp to me in the BB, where I raise black aces, and all call.

The flop is T95 and 2 spades. I bet, UTG and the button call, and now the SB checkraises.

My read of the SB is he is someone that would think that T8 is gold, and is checkraising because he thinks his hand is best(and he is certainly not folding). The question I have is whether to 3 bet now(does knowing that UTG will call 2 more, even with one overcard, change the answer?), or to wait until the SB bets the turn(which he probably will unless it is an ace or king) and then try to raise the other 2 out of this growing pot.

It seems like I 3 bet the flop so often there, and they all call(because they cant lay down a pair or inside straight draw there), and then I bet the turn and river, and they are correct to call. The mistake has been made on the flop by them(in calling 3 bets), but I sure wish I could get them to fold somehow.

Jason

[DeezNutz3]

Hi Jason,
This is one of the spots where I routinely wait until the turn to protect my hand. You do have the nut flush redraw if a spade comes off also. I would like to face those types of players with 2 big bets versus juice the pot and not protect my hand. Hope this helps a little.

Donny

[Paluka]

I would 3 bet the flop here. There are just too many opponents to get bets from. Also, there are too many scare cards that can come on the turn that will make you hesitant to raise.

[stoxtrader]

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I would 3 bet the flop here. There are just too many opponents to get bets from. Also, there are too many scare cards that can come on the turn that will make you hesitant to raise.

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agreed.

[Luke]

Paluka and stoxtrader, I agree with your thoughts on this hand 100%.

One question I have is would you be more likely to wait until the turn with an overpair that's not aces, say QQ or JJ - or are you still pounding this flop?

Luke

[DcifrThs]

you should be MORE likely to push here w/ QQ/KK b/c even more overcards can fall which would cause sb to check and leave you unable to clear the field and unsure of where you are if you just call and all call and then Ax hits and sb checks...it makes turn play a bit tougher.

when you are in a position to KNOW that the sb will continue then protecting your equity is important and might be worth a call, but you dont know sb will bet and there are MANY MANY cards that will slow sb down here and leave you forced to bet and 1 bet wont clear a field on the turn.

although unlikely 2 more bets on the flop MIGHT push 1 person out, which is good.

tough spot but with so many bad players, its time to collect bets now on the flop w/ an overpair/AJ

Barron

[flawless_victory]

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I would 3 bet the flop here. There are just too many opponents to get bets from. Also, there are too many scare cards that can come on the turn that will make you hesitant to raise.

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i agree w/ paluka.

[MattiasL]

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I would 3 bet the flop here. There are just too many opponents to get bets from. Also, there are too many scare cards that can come on the turn that will make you hesitant to raise.

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An additional reason to 3bet: SB could easily just be raising a strong draw for value here. In this case he may not lead the turn.
Even if the read is that it is more probable he is on a weaker made hand, the possibility must be considered as a factor.

[Edit] I originally thought this was 5-handed and not 4-handed for some reason. Perhaps this possibility can be discounted?

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Jason,
This is one of the spots where I routinely wait until the turn to protect my hand. You do have the nut flush redraw if a spade comes off also. I would like to face those types of players with 2 big bets versus juice the pot and not protect my hand. Hope this helps a little.

Donny

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Yeah I agree I turn raise this damn near 100% and I don't even think its close. I think whatever value you add in small bets on the flop is substantially outweighed by the folding equity you gain on the turn. Plus you just punish hands that aren't right to call SOOOOO much more here when you get in a successfull turn raise. I mean yes, sometimes he'll check and you'll swear but I think that the overwhelming majority of the time an opponent like this is going to continuation bet, maybe even with a draw....

i raise the turn 100% of the time here. You arent raising to knock anyone out, you are raising to build a pot. Given the size of the pot, most legit draws arent going anywhere and you have a redraw.