Loose Game Strategy Adjustments

[HammerinHank]

I played my first time in a very loose northern California game yesterday and only my second live session anywhere. I played by the book (I've only been learning the game for a couple months) and am wondering if a different approach is necessary in these very wild games.

Here is what I'm thinking about. Tell me where I'm wrong.

1. Maybe I should play more suited cards (or even offsuit connectors) since the posts are so large I am almost guaranteed to have the proper odds to draw. Or will I get beat too many times by a bigger flush?

2. Maybe I should play more connectors if I think I can get in for one bet. The problem here is even in on the button the blinds will often raise which often sets off the raising frenzy and it's three bets or capped when it gets back to me. Along these lines, is some of the advantage of position lost before the flop with so many pots being capped? Also what do I consider when I bet and end up faced with two or three more bets cold with weak connectors?

3. Protecting a hand may not be a viable strategy since these guys never fold. Since they are getting good odds for their straight and flush draws is there much value in making them pay extra? (I think the answer here is yes, but I'm not really sure.)

4. What do I do with big cards? Normally it is correct to raise to get more money in and to drive out players. I don't know which of these is more important. Certainly raising doesn't drive out many players. Do I raise with two off suit big cards? suited big cards? big pairs?

Thanks, now I going to the play money Internet games to practice. :-)

[1800GAMBLER]

1. Don't worry about a bigger flush, play your suited connectors. If you hit raise.

2. If the capping preflop doesn't drive anyone out again just carry on as normal but take more money, your odds will be the same but higher swings.

3. Always bet your top pair strong kicker, never bet others, david ross meantioned that in his new post. These games will be giving them the odds to see the turn to make 2 pair, then with a common structure/loose game they wont be getting the odds to see the river. Don't start checking the turn just because you had a lot of callers, if you aren't raised carry on like you are leading.

Ram and jam your draws, checkraise, raise, everything get money in there just remember the odds you need.

4. Bet your hands that don't require people out AQ AK AA KK QQ (?). Myself, i want feedback on this because i think people may disagree and they may be right, i wouldn't bet preflop with sutied connectors because i feel you only know where you stand once a flop hits and the variance with these cards hitting a flop is large.


There are big swings in these games but as everyone says they are the easiest to beat.

[Dynasty]

2. Maybe I should play more connectors (and I'll add all other weak hands) if I think I can get in for one bet. The problem here is even in on the button the blinds will often raise which often sets off the raising frenzy and it's three bets or capped when it gets back to me.

4. What do I do with big cards? Normally it is correct to raise to get more money in and to drive out players. I don't know which of these is more important. Certainly raising doesn't drive out many players. Do I raise with two off suit big cards? suited big cards? big pairs?

Ooooooh! You are so close to understanding something grand. All you have to do is understand why these two "problems" of yours are in conflict.

[thomastem]

Stick and raise with chickens.

[paoneaj]

Big pairs and off suited connectors have MINIMAL implied odds. Meaning they play well in heads up situations and poorly in multi way pots. Neverthelss if you are in a "MANIAC" game where everyone "stays till the end" and often re-raises, you'll want to play hands that have good implied odds and fold hands that do not. Hands w/ good implied odds are BIG suited connectors AKs, KQs, QJs these hands play well in multi-way pots. The whole purpose of raising when you have pocket pairs is to get people to fold because you want to be in heads up situations on the river. If they are going to stay in regardless of your power, you should consider folding. Hope this helps.

[Dynasty]

Big pairs and off suited connectors have MINIMAL implied odds. Meaning they play well in heads up situations and poorly in multi way pots...The whole purpose of raising when you have pocket pairs is to get people to fold because you want to be in heads up situations on the river... Hope this helps.

The last thing anybody on this board wants is "help" like that.

You don't need implied odds with big pairs. They're already the best hand and have an excellent chance of being so at the river. The best possible situation you can get into in hold 'em is to be dealt AA and have the pre-flop betting capped with EVERYBODY calling.

The only pots in which offsuit connectors can be played are in family pots. You certainly don't want to play them heads-up.

[DiamondDave]

Queens or higher pairs, AK, and ace-face suited are the best (and maybe the only) starting hands in loose-aggressive games. Go ahead and raise.

Good drawing hands like Axs, QJs, JTs, and any pair smaller than maybe TT or JJ should be folded UTG if you don't anticipate multiway action for one bet (sometimes two).

You can excercise a bit less restraint with these hands when you're in late position as long as you adjust for who did what earlier in the betting round. (Did the tight player enter the pot? Did the maniac who always raises on the flop actually fold this time?) Folding these hands when it's three bets to you (or is gonna get capped) is a good idea, even if it's a family pot.

Fold all your crummy drawing hands like KTs and medium suited connectors of there is a whole lotta raisin' goin' on (even if most of the raising is completely unwarranted).

[DiamondDave]

Folding AJo and KQo in early position in an extremely aggressive game feels pretty good. AQo is much better.

Hands like ATo and KJo are trash (unless it's folded to you in late position).

[paoneaj]

I agree and disagree. The question was, what to do w/ big pairs in a loose game where there are multi players in the pot to the end. Big pairs do not have implied odds and therefor do not play well in multi way pots and if you are in a LOOSE game where people never fold your opponents are more likely to catch a back door flush or straight. Which is bad, unless of course you flop a set, then the chance of getting a full house goes up. If you read Hold-em for advanced players you'll realize that pocket pairs lose their value in LOOSE games and should be folded after the flop UNLESS you flop a set.

[Dynasty]

If you read Hold-em for advanced players you'll realize that pocket pairs lose their value in LOOSE games.

HEPFAP does not say that. Pocket pairs go up in value in loose games. Here's an excerpt I just posted in a Small Stakes thread.

...So when the game is good, you should play more hands, specifically suited hands, but only if it appears that you can get in cheaply with them...

...if you are in a loose, passive game where they usually call, but only occassionally raise, you should play any Axs under the gun. You should also be playing a hand like Js9s under the gun, and anything better. You should play these hands because you are going to win a lot when you hit them. That is, you take advantage of bad play. You would also play all pairs.

As for the value of just big pocket pairs in multi-way pots, you may find these simulation results interesting. Not to my surprise, the best hands are, in order, 1. AA, 2. KK, 3. QQ, and 4. JJ. I believe the real-life data on pokerroom.com now has TT moving ahead of AKs.

http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm

[paoneaj]

So let me see if I understand you correctly. I'm sitting on pocket AA on the button, the preflop is capped with everyone in the pot and no intentions folding, and the flop comes all hearts. I should continue to bet my pocket aces even though the other players have implied odds against me.

[DanS]

"So let me see if I understand you correctly. I'm sitting on pocket AA on the button, the preflop is capped with everyone in the pot and no intentions folding, and the flop comes all hearts. I should continue to bet my pocket aces even though the other players have implied odds against me."

No, he's not saying that. If you can't see that you're either terribly versed in basic hold 'em strategy, or your mincing Dynasty's words to the point that it's laughable. The point wasn't that black aces are screwed when the flop comes T98 all hearts. The point was that big pocket pairs don't need to "limit the field" or "destroy implied odds;" the point was that you should be very happy getting a crapload of bets in the pot when you're a *huge* favorite.

Dan

[Dynasty]

You did not understand me correctly. For clarity, reread the appropriate post.

[paoneaj]

Excuse me, the question was how to play big pairs in a loose/aggresive game. I said that since they do not play well against a multi way pot (in other words players are not going to fold, regardless if you raise and thus are more likely going to out draw you), you should fold them unless you flop a set. The next time the both of you are in AZ please let me know as I can always use an extra fish at the table. You guys are probably the ones that are always complaining how you got a bad beat to a back door flush while sittiing on pocket rockets. Just as S&M says "a good player is able to fold otherwise good hands (i.e AA) in the right situation at the right time.

[Al Mirpuri]

Why do people who disagree with you have to be fish? Earlier you used a most unlikely scenario to try to rebut Dynasty's argument concerning Aces. Moreover, you appeal to authority </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Just as S&amp;M says "a good player is able to fold otherwise good hands (i.e AA) in the right situation at the right time. "

[/ QUOTE ] But Your Authorities support Dynasty's position. You should reread HEFAP. As for </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"a good player..."

[/ QUOTE ] I suppose you claim to be this good player.

[DanS]

Dude, are you trolling or just in a weak-tight/dense state of mind? Flop a set with a big pair against the field or fold, you must be kidding. I'll let others elaborate.

Dan

P.S. Not to be condescending and/or get into a pissing contest, but I think my strategy would do better in a typical 4/8 to 15/30 than yours. I'm *certain* that Dynasty has a much higher expectation than you in the same games.

[paoneaj]

I don't know which version of HEPFAP you guys are reading, but turn to page 125 of the twenty first edition. I quote "If your pair is JJ or TT, it is extremely important to bet into most flops, since there are many overcards that can beat you. However, if an overcard is present on the flop and you are check-raised, you usually should give it up. Ocasionally, you might look at the turn card. But unless you make a SET, you generally should fold on fourth street if your opponent bets." I use COMMON SENSE and take it one step further, if I have ANY big pair especially AA and the flop comes all suited, I fold unless one of my aces is of the same suit, or I've flopped a set. I rest my case.

[Clarkmeister]

Nowhere in Dan or Dynasty's posts did they say "play like a retard when the flop comes highly unfavorable".

They are talking about preflop play. Would you rather have AA against 7 players for 1 bet each preflop, or against 7 players for 4 bets each preflop?

[Jimbo]

"I use COMMON SENSE and take it one step further,...."

In my neck of the words going one step past common sense becomes nonsense.

[Ed Miller]

[Ray Zee]

almost evryone here except dynasty is getting it all wrong. you are so far out that it isnt even possible to start. reread hfap and understand what it says. dont take one line out of context and apply it to all situations.
i am really surprised at what i have just read in the above posts.

[Bama Boy]

Its obvious you are new here. And that itself is ok. But you will not win a pissing contest trying to tell everyone that Dynasty is full of crap, when he is consistently offering solid advice. Also being new, you probably have not read any of his posts to know that he does not complain about back door flushes beating his pocket A's, because he is not an idiot that applies preflop principles to post flop play.

[Al Mirpuri]

[paoneaj]

First of all my orginal post read;

Big pairs and off suited connectors have MINIMAL implied odds. Meaning they play well in heads up situations and poorly in multi way pots. Neverthelss if you are in a "MANIAC" game where everyone "stays till the end" and often re-raises, you'll want to play hands that have good implied odds and fold hands that do not. Hands w/ good implied odds are BIG suited connectors AKs, KQs, QJs these hands play well in multi-way pots. The whole purpose of raising when you have pocket pairs is to get people to fold because you want to be in heads up situations on the river. If they are going to stay in regardless of your power, you should consider folding. Hope this helps.

I was responding to part 4 of HammerinHanks question on what to do w/ big pairs in a "Wild Game". I did not assume he meant "pre-flop" since the question did not ask that. Therfore, I gave advice on what to do after flop w/ big pairs in the event a suited flop came. I agree that big pairs pre-flop, are AWESOME HANDS and have tremendous value. However, I just wanted to point out that in a loose/agressive game if you don't at least flop sets you should fold. The reasoning behind this is obvious to us but not a new player like HamerinHank. Then, enter Dynasty. He comes in and says nobody needs "help" like that. If you guys can't see the logic in my original post, than so be it and onto the next subject. Oh by the way nice way to treat a newbie after his first post, Dynasty.

[Jimbo]

"The whole purpose of raising when you have pocket pairs is to get people to fold because you want to be in heads up situations on the river."

I believe we have found your problem. The purpose of raising pocket pairs is to get more money in the pot from people whose hands are worse than yours, not to get them to fold. Newbie or not, poor advice is just that.

[paoneaj]

Okay, I agree that building up the pot against opponnents w/ poorer hands is an object of raising, but not the only one. You also do not want to be in multi way pots w/ pocket pairs since they do not have implied odds. Hence, another purpose to raising pocket pairs is to try and get opponents on the flush/straight draws out, so that they don't out draw you. This is a very dificult thing to do in a low limit, loose game, and therefore you should consider folding these hands in multi-way situations.

[paoneaj]

UNLESS you flop a set, than go for the full house draw.

[jnm2524]

I can understand how suited connectors can play well in loose aggressive games; you almost automatically have the pot odds to chase a straight draw or flush draw and when you hit nobody folds. Sounds good to me.

Here's what I simply cant understand: why would anyone devalue group I hands preflop? To paraphrase James Mcmanus (Positively Fifth Street) "...when I catch AA, Im looking to eviscerate someone." The same is true for KK, AK or even QQ. The point of the whole game is to get your money riding on a hand that has a distinct advantage - cap the betting, please. You just get money into my pot and allow me not to have to give up the power of my hand. No matter how many raisers and callers I have, my advantage is significant. The quote from HEFAP, I believe, is discussing hands that arent the group I big pairs or AK but pairs like TT and JJ. In this case, Sklansky and the other boys would have you raise rather than call because you cant afford overcards (i.e. Q trash, K trash) drawing out on you (in other words you want to thin the competition) or suited connectors seeing a flop and possibly a straight or flush draw. With the raise, you also have the possibility of winning the pot right there (which is a god send for you when you have TT or lower). Also, if you do happen to flop the set, you can torture your opponents if they hit their top pair or two pair. On the other hand, you cant just play these hands robotically to the river because there are too many dangers that could assail you at any moment; you must be aware of the players and the way theyre playing their hands. PAY ATTENTION! Facing alot of resistance and raising? Err on the side of caution. Youre not a good poker player if you never lay down the best hand.

Here's the point to this ramble: There can be no argument against the big dogs preflop, youre putting your money on a hand with a mathematical edge. Whoever calls is basically on the come no matter what (with the exception of AK vs smaller pair). That's good, punish them for it.

There are also great advantages to suited connectors in games where you have alot of callers and are willing to take the swings in your bankroll, deception being the most important: It's hard to put someone on T9 when the flop comes J8Q rainbow. It's time to start some torturing your opponents, especially the ones who refuse to fold top pair.

That's the way I see it anyway. Tell me if Ive got it all busted up and messed around so I can get straightened out.

[John Ho]

Do you even know what the odds are of flopping all one suit? Stop focusing so much of your attention on this.

That issue is irrelevant. You're debating something different from what all the knowledgable guys are debating.

The question is whether big pairs need implied odds. The answer is no. Do suited or unsuited connectors needs implied odds? Yes of course. So you must get in cheap because you rarely hit it. Pairs don't need to hit except for avoiding overcards when lots of players see the flop.

And yes you will lose often with aces in an 8 way pot and must be able to get away from it what there is raising. But when you win the pot, even without a set, you will win a big one. Volatility goes up but so does you expectation when lots of players are calling with limited outs.

[John Ho]

You're definetely a "glass is half empty" type of guy.

I am happy to let multiple opponents draw to the same straight or flush because when it hits I can probably see it and get away.

Otherwise they are calling with the worst hand and making me money. Situations like this are the absolute bread and butter of low limit holdem which I played for 2 years before moving on up. You bet the best hand all the way and god forgive your opponents if they catch up. If they don't then you take home the money, f*ck the head cheerleader, and all the other goodies that go with being the table stud.

[paoneaj]

You're exactly right. I have been trying to make this same argument but I must be saying it the wrong way.

[HammerinHank]

At the risk of embarrassing myself further, here goes. Big pairs are great against big fields as long as the board doesn't get too scary and/or you have to put someone on a bigger hand. My "problem" isn't a problem, it's good that all the knuckle heads are capping because that's more money theat I have the best chance to win.

I just can't make the connection to the other point (trying to play the weaker hands cheaply and ending up faces with raises behind me from blinds) other than the obvious point that I shouldn't loosen up because I'm unlikely to get in cheep, or that I should only do it from the BB.

I know from reading your posts that you would rather, as the old story goes, teach someone to fish than give them the fish. I'm just not getting the big picture.

[HammerinHank]

[HammerinHank]

At the risk of embarrassing myself further, here goes. Big pairs are great against big fields as long as the board doesn't get too scary and/or you have to put someone on a bigger hand. My "problem" isn't a problem, it's good that all the knuckle heads are capping because that's more money that I have the best chance to win.

I just can't make the connection to the other point (trying to play the weaker hands cheaply and ending up faces with raises behind me from blinds) other than the obvious point that I shouldn't loosen up because I'm unlikely to get in cheep.

I know from reading your posts that you would rather, as the old story goes, teach someone to fish than give them the fish. I'm just not getting the big picture.

[SwordFish]

Hank -

You seem to be answering your own question...play these hands if you can get in cheap. Usually you want to play these hands from late position when you can limp in. But you don't have to be the last one to act. Example: you are in LMP with TJs and call. If everyone behind you calls or folds, great, you are in cheap. If the button raises, SB three bets and BB caps --&gt; lay it down. You only lost one SB taking the chance. The fish are the ones who call the additional three bets because they already have money in the pot.

SF

[MrGrob]

"I can understand how suited connectors can play well in loose aggressive games; you almost automatically have the pot odds to chase a straight draw or flush draw and when you hit nobody folds. Sounds good to me."

The above is true, however, only after you make the 1st mistake of calling with it in the first place, in my opinion. I don't care what kind of game it is, if you are always calling small suited connectors etc from early position, you are going to get hammered.... If you know that it is going to be capped pre-flop, and you call anyway, I really do not think it matters how many people are going to be in the hand, as you are going to invest way too much money upfront, and still run the risk of hitting and losing. There are certain hands that are constant losers, and if played all the time from anywhere, you will lose. Suited connectors are not bad, but only if you can get in for cheap and in late position or so.

I find lose / aggressing tables boring, myself, as you have to wait for the right hands in the right spots, and then hope they hold.

If you really think that playing suited connectors from any position, knowing that the betting is going to be capped, I believe you have a serious hole in your play...and unless you are playing with complete and total dolts, you are also not going to make the money you lose when you miss up, as they will drop out on you and not pay you off enough when you hit.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I really feel that you guys are way off base. The above is general, and changes from time to time depending on how the players are playing. But I cannot condone the idea that you have all the implied odds you need AFTER MAKING the 1st mistake of calling in the 1st place.

That is what I think....

[jnm2524]

I completely agree with what youre saying and I believe I may not have made myself clear. I am not condoning playing medium suited connectors from early position - you are correct in saying that's a very poor idea - I am advocating them, when position and play allows you get in on the cheap, because of their implied odds. Here's a most important point with these, or any hand, for that matter: Pay attention and do not play from rote. Everything is situational and every decision should be made based on the read of the table. I think that is the point that I neglected to make in my first post and, if Im reading your reply correctly, it's what you are correctly pointing out. Would that be a fair assumption?

[paoneaj]

Exactly right. Play the big pairs and fold if the board flops suited, unless you flop a set. You want to play big suited connectors, cheaply. Meaning if you have AKs and you don't at least flop four cards to a flush, or top pair consider folding. Ultimately, all of this depends on how well you know your opponents and position. The one thing about hold-em is that it is a very situational game and therefore solutions are contingnet upon MANY factors.