party 30/60 top set butchered

[charlieD]

in this hand the player in the cutoff (38/18/2.3) has just joined the game and can be a bit of a loon. she tends to drive marginal holdings and draws a little too far.
the big blind is a little looser preflop (40/8/2) but has a style similar to the cutoff postflop.

the hand
cutoff posts a $30 blind
5 folds to hero with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif, who raises, cutoff calls, button folds, sb and bb both call.

flop; T /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

sb checks, bb bets, hero calls, co raises, sb calls, bb calls, hero 3 bets, co caps, sb calls, bb calls, hero calls.

turn; 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

bb bets, hero raises, co 3 bets, sb folds, bb calls, hero calls.

river; 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

bb checks, hero checks, co checks.

final pot 21 bbs

on this draw heavy flop i decided to gamble, hoping that the cutoff had picked up something to go nuts with and allowing me to trap everyone else into putting in alot of money on the flop. was this a mistake?

[flawless_victory]

yeah... on the turn, CAP THAT SH!T.
the river, BET!

I think your flop play was a mistake and heres why. The problem with just calling on the flop is the pot is too big. Whenever you are thinking about slowplaying a hand by smooth calling versus raising, you must ask yourself "If I just call will anyone behind me have a profitable draw?" If the answer to this question is Yes, then you should not slowplay and instead raise right away. In this hand after you smooth called the flop, the CO,Button, and the SB were all getting 12-1 to call, which means if any of them have a gutshot draw they are now able to call profitably. You cannot allow anyone a profitable draw so you must raise the flop.

Side note: When someone has a set, a gutshot is a 14-1 underdog, since the gutshots are already getting 12-1 pot odds, they can call profitably becuz of implied odds they will get if they hit. So if the pot was a smaller size, like around 6-8 small bets, then smooth calling the flop has more merit, since no one can draw profitably behind you.

[Joe Tall]

On such a draw heavy flop, raise you are in perfect position with the bet to your immediate right.

[ QUOTE ]
On such a draw heavy flop, raise you are in perfect position with the bet to your immediate right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just becuz this is a draw heavy flop does not mean a slow play is incorrect. It is the pot size that makes the smooth call incorrect. In fact if the pot size was 6 small bets instead of 11 small bets, I wouldve just called also. The flush draws and the OESD's have a profitable call no matter what the hero does, but if a blank hits the turn the hero will have the opportunity to charge the maximum to these draws by forcing them to call 2BB's on forth street when they are around 4-1 underdogs. Thats how I like to play a set on this flop in a smaller pot, but in a pot of this size(11sb) raising to force the gutshots to fold correctly or call incorrectly is more important than waiting til forth street to charge the premium draws maximum price.

In case youre interested, Mason Malmuth gives a good example of slowplaying a set on a draw heavy board in poker essays 3, on page 91. Pocket 99's on a Jc 9s 3c board.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On such a draw heavy flop, raise you are in perfect position with the bet to your immediate right.

[/ QUOTE ]play is incorrect. It is the pot size that makes the smooth call incorrect. In fact if the pot size was 6 small bets instead of 11 small bets, I wouldve just called also. The flush draws and the OESD's have a profitable call no matter what the hero does, but if a blank hits the turn the hero will have the opportunity to charge the maximum to these draws by forcing them to call 2BB's on forth street when they are around 4-1 underdogs. Thats how I like to play a set on this flop in a smaller pot, but in a pot of this size(11sb) raising to force the gutshots to fold correctly or call incorrectly is more important than waiting til forth street to charge the premium draws maximum price.

In case youre interested, Mason Malmuth gives a good example of slowplaying a set on a draw heavy board in poker essays 3, on page 91. Pocket 99's on a Jc 9s 3c board.

[/ QUOTE ]

The board texture is VERY important for this as well -- I'd say more important than the pot size. Too many players raise their draws on the flop and wait until the turn to pop a set; this often results in tons of players distrusting flop action and putting in multiple bets on the flop drawing slim to dead, but slowing way the [censored] down after you raise the turn. There are so many advantages to raising this particular flop in this particular situation that I don't think it's particularly close.

Rob

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On such a draw heavy flop, raise you are in perfect position with the bet to your immediate right.

[/ QUOTE ]play is incorrect. It is the pot size that makes the smooth call incorrect. In fact if the pot size was 6 small bets instead of 11 small bets, I wouldve just called also. The flush draws and the OESD's have a profitable call no matter what the hero does, but if a blank hits the turn the hero will have the opportunity to charge the maximum to these draws by forcing them to call 2BB's on forth street when they are around 4-1 underdogs. Thats how I like to play a set on this flop in a smaller pot, but in a pot of this size(11sb) raising to force the gutshots to fold correctly or call incorrectly is more important than waiting til forth street to charge the premium draws maximum price.

In case youre interested, Mason Malmuth gives a good example of slowplaying a set on a draw heavy board in poker essays 3, on page 91. Pocket 99's on a Jc 9s 3c board.

[/ QUOTE ]

The board texture is VERY important for this as well -- I'd say more important than the pot size. Too many players raise their draws on the flop and wait until the turn to pop a set; this often results in tons of players distrusting flop action and putting in multiple bets on the flop drawing slim to dead, but slowing way the [censored] down after you raise the turn. There are so many advantages to raising this particular flop in this particular situation that I don't think it's particularly close.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Raising is so much better. Because the expected betting is coming from your right, waiting till the turn will often just totally shut down your action in a way raising the flop will not. The board texture also tends to make it less sure that you'll get bet into on the turn (either because the bettor has a draw which he'll check if the turn misses, or because a scary turn card will induce the bettor to check).

Not raising this flop would be a big mistake in my opinion.

Your points are valid, and certainly the texture of the board plays a role in how one goes about playing any hand. And I agreed that the hero should raise this particular flop for the reasons I outlined, but I will also say that in a smaller sized pot on this board, slowplaying has its merits, I am not saying that one should always slowplay this flop if the pot is small, what I am saying is that when the pot is small, (the size where just calling the flop will not allow a gutshot draw to call correctly) then smooth calling the flop becomes a reasonable alternative to raising the flop. Now there may be other factors that might lead you to raise this flop regardless of pot size, but thats not really my point. My point is that in a small pot smooth calling the flop becomes an acceptable strategy, but in a 11sb pot such as the one in this thread there is only one right strategy IMO, and that is to raise the flop for the reasons I mentioned.
I will also mention that if pot size was very large, like 20sbs or more, I am smooth calling this flop every time, since a flop raise will not protect my hand from a gutshot draw. I would call, hoping the original flop bettor would bet again on the turn and then I would raise to force the gutshots to fold correctly or call incorrectly.
So in a small pot you have flexibility, raising the flop and calling the flop are both acceptable strategies. In a large pot, raising this flop is the only acceptable play, and in a very large pot, calling the flop is the only acceptable play IMO.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
on this draw heavy flop i decided to gamble, hoping that the cutoff had picked up something to go nuts with and allowing me to trap everyone else into putting in alot of money on the flop. was this a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think so. You might as well jam the pot here due to the fact that it would really suck if you check to CO on the turn and she checks behind with a draw. With the CO in another position you could get fancy, but given your position here I see no other way to play it.

Mike Emery

[TStoneMBD]

i definitely think the flop needs to be raised but whats really inexcusable is your turn call. im definitely not going to assume the CO coldcalled with J8. even if you think this is his most likely holding (which its not) your overlay is so huge with the BB in the hand and you have tremendous redraw equity.

[ QUOTE ]
yeah... on the turn, CAP THAT SH!T.
the river, BET!

[/ QUOTE ]

[WillyTrailer]

DUDE!

Just keep clicking the button furthest to the right. You don't even have to move your cursor!

-WT

[cpk]

Wait--I thought the flop was capped.

And you forget about the overriding concern, as well--with a huge hand and a huge draw but no way to price out the draws, might as well get as much money into the pot as possible.

Further, I pop the turn again. The possibility of being ahead combined with having a massive redraw is +EV city for raising. It's not like having top pair and possibly drawing dead.