25/50 top pair hand

[ggbman]

I just sat down at the table, no real reads or stats except villian in this hand has been raising a lot PF.. We're 5 handed, and i don't have the HH cuz Eurobet sucks. The CO raises to 150, i call on the button with A-T off. The flop is T23r. I call 350. The turn is an offsuit 2. CO check, i bet 750, call. River is an 8 and he leads for 1500. What is my play and why?

[flawless_victory]

he prob has an overpair.
i wuld strongly consider pushing as a bluff.. he might even end up calling w/ a worse hand since your raise really doesnt represent AT.

[xorbie]

any thought to checking the turn there?

[flawless_victory]

i prob wouldve.

[ggbman]

I think my hand is usually good here, but its vunerable, so i felt a value/protective bet was mandatory.

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
he prob has an overpair.
i wuld strongly consider pushing as a bluff.. he might even end up calling w/ a worse hand since your raise really doesnt represent AT.

[/ QUOTE ]good old "when in doubt go allin" theorem.

[ggbman]

Thye thing that bothers me is that his turn/river action is not consistent, making it difficult to put him on an overpaid. Why try to keep the pot small on the turn if he wants to lead the river?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Thye thing that bothers me is that his turn/river action is not consistent, making it difficult to put him on an overpaid. Why try to keep the pot small on the turn if he wants to lead the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
this is thinking like a limit plyr.

[Maulik]

I would muck ATo. This is similar to a ZeeJustin hand from a while ago.

[Allinlife]

since when did eurobet have 25/50 nl games?

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
since when did eurobet have 25/50 nl games?

[/ QUOTE ]

its part of the Poker Room network.

[Prevaricator]

[ QUOTE ]
since when did eurobet have 25/50 nl games?

[/ QUOTE ]

i could have sworn it was SB=BB games(ie 25 25). It wont let me see the tables now either, this happen to anyone else?

[jhall23]

Prev,

Yeah I think it has been confirmed you need to make a deposit before you can see the tables.

[Chaostracize]

Zee's hand was soooooted.

[integrate]

This post made no sense.

You say to push as a bluff, but say he might call with a worse hand. If he might call with a worse hand, what do you think he's going to do with an overpair?

[dark_avenger]

[ QUOTE ]

i could have sworn it was SB=BB games(ie 25 25). It wont let me see the tables now either, this happen to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what it says in the lobby, but what they call a 50-50NL game is really 25-50

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
he prob has an overpair.
i wuld strongly consider pushing as a bluff.. he might even end up calling w/ a worse hand since your raise really doesnt represent AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This clearly isn't contradictary now, is it?

-Jason

[JMP300z]

Makes sense to me, sometimes he folds a better hand, sometimes he calls with a worse hand. He just left out the part where sometimes he calls with a better hand. Happens all the time where you bluff or semibluff and incidentally show down the best hand. Bluff for value.

Whether or not this is one of those spots...

FWIW unless i view him as supertight nitty i just muck.

-JP

[Paluka]

Wouldn't KK or QQ either bet or checkraise the turn? I don't see what the check/call and then lead does in this spot. I would guess this guy either has ace high, 99/88, JTs or aces. Feels like we have to call and sometimes lose to aces.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the check/call and then lead does in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Feels like we have to call

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how really good poker players can still make posts like these. FWIW, 1800GAMBLER took this line in a posted KK hand a few months ago and every comment was "NH". I think this line is pretty common for good players with an overpair. It definitely is a line I'll use regularly with KK and somewhat with QQ.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he prob has an overpair.
i wuld strongly consider pushing as a bluff.. he might even end up calling w/ a worse hand since your raise really doesnt represent AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This clearly isn't contradictary now, is it?

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]
are u kidding?

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the check/call and then lead does in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Feels like we have to call

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how really good poker players can still make posts like these. FWIW, 1800GAMBLER took this line in a posted KK hand a few months ago and every comment was "NH". I think this line is pretty common for good players with an overpair. It definitely is a line I'll use regularly with KK and somewhat with QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might be completey wrong, I'm definitely not a strong NL player but I like to get involved in interesting threads because I learn something. Taking this line with KK or QQ seems like something that would happen more in a full game rather than a 5 handed one that likely plays fast and loose. Am I wrong on that too?
This also makes me wonder, if we can't call this river, why are we playing AT at all? Or is that bad reasoning?

[Hattifnatt]

I would say fold, either slowplayed set, overpair or a lucky 2outer on the river.

[etizzle]

even in a 5 handed game playing fast, getting raised big on the turn with KK in this situation means you are going to have to let it go most of the time. Look at the confusion he set up by playing it this way (if he did have an overpair). OP is close to calling with just top pair, whereas if villain had just fired the whole way he would have been much more likely to lay it down.

and yeah its probably the wrong way to think about ATo in terms of whether or not to play it in general. Most of the times we wont be put to tough decisions like this, although you are correct if you just mean that ATo is an awkward hand to play in NL, it is. Rarely are you winning a big pot with one pair and ATo, and if youre not careful you might lose a big one (ie this hand).

Easy call imo. I could easily see villian making this bet as a valvue bet with any ten where our kicker wins. He might hit 2 pair on the river with T8, but I think overpair is doubtfull. I think we have to call, since villian easily could be trying to keep the pot small with his KT on turn, and then leading river to make sure you don't check behind him with something like 99. I think we are winning this one more often than we are loosing it, so easy call.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I didn't mean to imply that you are completely wrong. It could very well be the case that this is not a line that this player would take with an overpair and perhaps a call is correct here. I just meant that you said at first that you didn't know why anyone would take this line with an overpair and then you go on to say that you think we should pay off a pot sized value bet on the river with top pair. Which is exactly why an overpair might take this line. I think this line will win the most/lose the least with an overpair. You induce bluffs on the turn, you induce loose calls on the river.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
I just sat down at the table, no real reads or stats except villian in this hand has been raising a lot PF.. We're 5 handed, and i don't have the HH cuz Eurobet sucks. The CO raises to 150, i call on the button with A-T off. The flop is T23r. I call 350. The turn is an offsuit 2. CO check, i bet 750, call. River is an 8 and he leads for 1500. What is my play and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough spot.

I'm curious who villain was in this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Thye thing that bothers me is that his turn/river action is not consistent, making it difficult to put him on an overpaid. Why try to keep the pot small on the turn if he wants to lead the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe he figures you for JJ or QQ and does not want to see another of those fall on the river. Maybe he has 10,10, but is super cautious??

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the check/call and then lead does in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Feels like we have to call

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how really good poker players can still make posts like these. FWIW, 1800GAMBLER took this line in a posted KK hand a few months ago and every comment was "NH". I think this line is pretty common for good players with an overpair. It definitely is a line I'll use regularly with KK and somewhat with QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might be completey wrong, I'm definitely not a strong NL player but I like to get involved in interesting threads because I learn something. Taking this line with KK or QQ seems like something that would happen more in a full game rather than a 5 handed one that likely plays fast and loose. Am I wrong on that too?
This also makes me wonder, if we can't call this river, why are we playing AT at all? Or is that bad reasoning?

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to limit, NL has less room for value betting all 3 streets, because that often implies our stack gets all in by the end and that's obviously not something you want happening every hand. On this board, there are almost no draws for hero to call the flop with, and most hands hero does call with have 5 max outs to beat villain with.

In limit, there's no harm in betting here on the turn with an overpair, because worst case scenario we get raised and end up calling down (well obviously in limit you probably 3-bet here but for argument's sake...). In NL, you pay with your stack when behind, and very few times you will get called by a lesser pair on this turn, barring a slowplayed big pair.

Moreover, this is definitely a flop which hero could call and take it away on the turn from "missed overcards", so there's no reason for an overpair not to let villain do this.

[JMa]

Eurobet is now part of teh pokerroom network. they have higher limits.

[arod15]

I think I fold this PF. I hate getting into an hand with AT when someone has opened for a raise. Its just dominated far too often. However, given his bet I doubt a push will be any more than just spewing. Cut your losses, A 10 is no good in this spot....

[ggbman]

Well 2 really. If i shove i have about 2200 behind, do you see him folding JJ/QQ getting this price very often?

Also, i know i asked this already, but i didn't see an answer that explained it to me. If villian doesn't want to get his stack in on the turn, why does he open the river action and expose himself to a shove or bluff? Flawless said i'm thinking like a limit player, but i'm just saying lots of NL players wont want to bet this river with JJ/QQ in case i have a hand worth shoving, and because i need a good T to pay it off.

[Jason Strasser]

No I'm not kidding.


You said he'd call with worse but that he probably has an overpair, so push.

-Jason

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Well 2 really. If i shove i have about 2200 behind, do you see him folding JJ/QQ getting this price very often?

Also, i know i asked this already, but i didn't see an answer that explained it to me. If villian doesn't want to get his stack in on the turn, why does he open the river action and expose himself to a shove or bluff? Flawless said i'm thinking like a limit player, but i'm just saying lots of NL players wont want to bet this river with JJ/QQ in case i have a hand worth shoving, and because i need a good T to pay it off.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a substantial river bet. I think it's going to be hard for most players to find a bluff all-in over the top of that bet.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
No I'm not kidding.


You said he'd call with worse but that he probably has an overpair, so push.

[/ QUOTE ]

i said push so he will fold and an overpair... getting called and winning will be rare, as i dont expect him to be playing QT like this alot, but if he does, sometimes he will call. QT and QQ shouldnt look much diff 2 him in that spot.

[Ulysses]

Dear Jason and others,

What flawless says, while it may sound contradictory and wrong to you, is often exactly the case. If you give this some thought, you will see why it is not quite as confusing as it seems at first glance.

Holiday greetings,
El Diablo

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No I'm not kidding.


You said he'd call with worse but that he probably has an overpair, so push.

[/ QUOTE ]

i said push so he will fold and an overpair... getting called and winning will be rare, as i dont expect him to be playing QT like this alot, but if he does, sometimes he will call. QT and QQ shouldnt look much diff 2 him in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it makes a lot more sense to me.

-SmileyEH

[ggbman]

I called, villian had T8 and MHING, I just wanted to be sure the river payoff was standard, seems there were not too many advoctaes of folding.

[Paluka]

Were you just supposed to go all in on turn this hand? Would that work agianst an overpair, or does only the big river all in move someone off a better hand?

[TheWorstPlayer]

really? seems like everyone but me thinks folding is good and I always thought it was close.

[ggbman]

Given his action, i would generally think i would need to make a pot sized re-raise to get him off most of the non-bluffing hands in his range. Given that he ended up having top two, i might have needed even more than that.