Stud/8: bringing it in for a full bet with garbage

[Andy B]

$4/8 stud/8 with a $.50 ante, $2 bring-in. Before I describe the exact scenario, I'll tell you a little bit abou one of my opponents, LH. LH likes to sit in the 1 seat, and I like to sit in the 1 seat when I can, otherwise I prefer to sit in the 2 or perhaps the 3 seat. The closer to the dealer's left I sit, the better. This gives me a few extra seconds to memorize my hole cards, and I need all the help I can get. So anyway, LH is frequently in the 1 seat and I am frequently in the 2 seat. We usually play high-only stud, $6/12 or occasionally $3/6. LH likes to raise when he has an Ace in the door, perhaps a shade more often than he should. Usually, I just fold, but occasionally I wake up with a pair of Queens or some such and re-raise. This is usually enough to get it heads-up, especially in the $6/12 game. LH will usually check-call fourth and check-fold fifth. This kind of scenario comes up fairly often. I like to think that I have a certain amount of control over him.

Anyway, we're playing in this five-handed stud/8 game. Why I couldn't tell you. With a $3 rake and mediocre but certainly not terrible opponents, all of them familiar, I don't think I have much of an edge, especially considering my general state of mind of late, but there we are. I am the bring-in with (K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif J/forums/images/icons/spade.gif) <font color="red">4</font color>/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. LH has a chip in his hand ready to call with a Ten showing. Behind him are a Queen, another Ten, and a Queen. The other Ten is held by my buddy who laid down rolled-up fives in another post. I elect to bring it in for the full $4. Comments?

[Michael Davis]

I think this is a great play.

Also, the cards you catch that appear scariest to your opponents will not help you, but cards that look like complete crap may turn your hand into a virtual monster.

I think this is the type of play only a thinking, observant opponent can make. I'm not sure what you mean by your "state of mind," but if it means making plays like this, I think that's the state of mind to be in.

-Mike

[Andy B]

I'm going through a divorce. This is decidedly not the state of mind to be in.

[Wombat6]

Lets establish the fact that I am no stud 8 player . But i like to think I have a pretty good grasp on poker concepts in genral. an a lousy grasp on spelling. so...

I think it looks like a pretty good opportunity to steal In this speedie structured game. but there isnt that much in the pot 4 for 6.50. of course if they do come along you can figure those that do for pretty good hole cards. I dont know if I would make this play because I am looking to scoop a small pot if I get called. with the cards I have It isnt likely I will hog it in a show down. In fact I could be up against a much better high or low. your representing a good 3 card low so if you do get played with it is likely a hi hand will be doing it. And he will be getting the odds to do it too. A better player might just have you on a steal considering the raspy board and might toy with you just for spite. I figure you need a suited A holed up to be doing this but then it wouldnt be a garbage hand, would it?

Personally I like to open raise in a speedie structured game . It forces early people (players to my left) to fold bad draws or take bad odds with good ones. especially if its a tightish game with a frisky raiser round back. however if I have a calling station to my left and loose drawers to my left I will usually just bring it with good hands and draws alike. If this is so and I have a frisky raiser round back well....you have to get a bit more creative with the draws and be willing to put in some chips somewhere with the pair hands.

maybe I should read that Hi lo book I got sitting on my shelf.... /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

Wombat6

[Andy B]

I have to put in at least $2 anyway, so I am, in a sense, risking $2 to win $6.50. It doesn't have to work that often to be profitable. On the other hand, LH is ready to call. Personally, I don't think that there's a hand that I'd limp first-in for $2 that I wouldn't also play for $4. But I thought there was a reasonable chance that I could push LH off of his hand. I was right, and I was able to buy the antes. If I get called, I might continue to bluff if I catch scary cards, but if anyone else shows any signs of life, I am absolutely done with the hand.

One thing to note is that I rarely bring it in for a full bet, especially in stud/8. I prefer to bring it in for the minimum, which helps me to gauge the strength of the hands I'm up against. It also allows me to re-raise if I'm very strong or feeling particularly frisky. It can also disguise my strong hands when there is no first-round raise. A person might reasonably have put me on a steal, which might induce him to call, but he's still got a banana in the door, and a dead one to boot.

I figure you need a suited A holed up to be doing this but then it wouldnt be a garbage hand, would it?

If you mean something like (A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif J/forums/images/icons/spade.gif) <font color="red">4</font color>/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif, that is a trash hand, but it's a lot stronger given the cards that are out.

If you have Ray Zee's book, yes, you should read it. Many times.

[Wombat6]

you are absolutly correct more reason to take a swing at it.

i was thinking more like A &lt;img src="/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif" alt="" /&gt; J &lt;img src="/forums/images/icons/spade.gif" alt="" /&gt; 4 &lt;img src="/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif" alt="" /&gt;

I know still crap.

[Ray Zee]

yea andy, these kind of plays can be real good. especially in spots where the extra 2 bucks get you whats out there. it also mixes up your play a little and thats good short handed. the one thng that can go bad is against players that like to go out in small pots. in this type of game you are better limping and then betting with any small card. hoping that they dont want to fool around in a small pot. where if they came for the raise they may be pot stuck. if you do catch your hole cards you can string along and fool them.

good thinking.

[Cooling Heels]

If there is ever a time to steal antes with the bring-in in stud/8, it's short handed with dead tens and
queens on the board. Hard to imagine what hole cards a partially dead ten can have to call the bring-in, but it sounds like he's ready to call. The most likely
scenarios will be heads up on 4th with a diguised garbage hand against what I'd consider an unplayable hand, or
they all fold and you keep your bring-in and steal the antes.

My big problem with completing the bet in the CP's 4/8 game is their screwy betting structure. Completions have minimal effect in late position, as someone
limping in for $2 rarely folds when the bet is completed to $4. It is very difficult to limit the field when dealt a (A,5) A, and makes playing a (A,Q)A very
scary. I would prefer a $1 bring-in like the Bellagio 4/8 stud game, or for CP to spread a 3/6 or 6/12 stud/8 game with a 3/1 complete to bring-in ratio.

Your bring-in completion should drop the opponents with those lousy board cards, but good luck with some of those guys, as some of them love medium pairs, 3 flushes, and medium str8 draws. If the guy reaching for chips has the only hole cards I'd consider playable, (A,A) or (T,T), you
will quickly be seeing a raise.

[Andy B]

You don't play (A/forums/images/icons/club.gif 2/forums/images/icons/club.gif) T/forums/images/icons/club.gif for the bring-in? LH was definitely ready to limp in. If he had called, I might well have been able to blow him off his hand if I had caught low cards on fourth and fifth, or who knows, I could have made a pair or something. I was definitely not looking for action in any case.

I just hate the structure of Canterbury's $2/4 and $4/8 stud games, not to mention most rounds of their small stud tournaments. The bring-in is half of the small bet in these games, for the benefit of those who haven't played there. A stud game should be structured such that one might consider folding after limping in. Obviously, if I've limped in for $2, I'm not going to fold for another $2 unless I've gained some serious information. I have seen people limp and then fold to completions, and I can't imagine with what. The bring-in should be $1 in that game, and for that matter, they should play with $1 chips which would help stimulate action, in my opinion. Better still, make it $6/12. The rake is $4 instead of $4.50, and I think that the $1 ante, $2 bring-in is the ideal stud structure. It's not that much more money, and I think it would a better game. They did have an $8/16 stud/8 game a few times last fall, and there was some great action. They used a $3 bring-in when they had $8/16 high-only stud in December 2000 (the jackpot was around $20,000), but they had a $2 bring-in for a while in the stud/8 version. This being Canterbury Park, they of course settled on a $4 bring-in. Ugh. Anyway, I would like to play somewhat bigger than $4/8 and somewhat smaller than $30/60. Well, if they could convince some of the people who really fueled the $30/60 game to start playing it again, I'd find some money. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Wombat6]

I hate to mention it AB but if you use the "acheive maximum rake" mind set that structure makes perfect sense.

just go over what can happen step by step with the various hand types and I am sure you can figure out a way to make it work for you. Just think of it this way it will likely be a lively game regardless. If you remember to use the B.O.A.T. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif methodology youll be fine.

If you dont know what B.O.A.T. means just ask And Ill elucidate. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Wombat6

[Andy B]

Well, yes, I do understand about maximizing the rake. The $2/4 game has a $.50 ante to go with the $1 bring-in. With a 10% rake, most pots get raked $3 or more, and many do get the full $4.50 taken out. With the $4.50 rake, it also makes sense that they'd push $4/8 rather than some other limit for small stud/8. At $2/4 or $3/6, the rake would be high enough that there would be few, if any, winners. At $6/12, the house misses out on the occasional $.50 (although $6/12 players tend to play faster than lower-limit players, with a couple of notable exceptions, one a drinker, and the other something of a madman). If the players decided to play $6/12, we'd play $6/12. The house does put some restrictions on what we can play, but they would cheerfully spread $6/12 stud/8 if there were sufficient demand.

I am unfamiliar with "B.O.A.T." Please elucidate. And in the future, you should eschew obfuscation.

[Wombat6]

B.O.A.T. Break Out Another Thousand


Wombat6

[FeliciaLee]

I thought it was a brilliant move, Andy. Very indicative of an advanced player. Only someone who is thinking outside of the box would attempt this kind of move.

I'm very sorry to hear about your divorce. Please try to keep your spirits up during this trying time. Things happen for a reason and I'm sure one day you will know what that reason is.

I don't have any strategy or advanced concepts to share with you, at this time. I just wanted to say how much I liked your move in the Stud8 situation. Sometimes people on this forum only write in to criticize and tear down others (not this thread). It gets old...fast. I get sick of posting any advice, just to see it ripped apart by someone who didn't even bother to read my disclaimer saying that I, too, am just a novice. So, for a change, I wanted to post to you with sole intent of saying that your play was fantastic, IMO.