LO8 Tuition costs

[absentx]

Okay pretty new to Omaha, but have done well at small levels so I tried out 2/4 the other night. Heeding advice to "quickly move up in levels" if one is doing well.

Now, I realize that bankroll requirements for L08 are much less than holdem....but I pretty much got wiped out last night! Basically I lost about 90 big bets at the 2/4 level.

My question then is it possible there is a "tuition" or learning stake involved when advancing up in levels or is such a loss an indicator to move back down and re think my game?

I realize a downswing like that in Holdem would be nothing, but since bankroll requirements are less here, then I guess I am a tad concerned.

[sy_or_bust]

its well known that learning curves exist when moving up stakes. mostly this relates to making adjustments that optimize your winrate, such as raising lighter and bluffing/inducing bluffs at a higher frequency in aggressive games.

once you move behind the microlimits of LO8, you need to think at least a little and begin to 'play poker'. a weak-tight game won't carry the 'default' edge it used to...and if you choose to sit in a bad game, you might not have an edge at all. downswings of 90BB make it much more likely that you aren't a big winner (or winner at all) at 2/4. when you're taking shots, you must game-select well (or risk falling deeper into a weak-tight shell).

you can move up aggressively if you want, but i would strongly advise against it until you can comfortably beat a 2/4 game. the largest leap, conceptually, is micro --> 2/4.

[gergery]

The other part of that advice is to move down quickly too if you are not doing well.

Not doing well consists of either
1) Losing a significant chunk of money. In a limit game, if I lose my entire buy at the table, I will leave and stop playing. You lost ~4 buyins.
2) Getting your money in a bunch of times as a dog. If I go losing sessions and find that the histories show that when money when in a significant % of the time, I had less equity than my opponents, then it is clear I’ve moved up too far.

There is a “tuition” when moving up, but if you are a winning player then it is more about minor adjustments to table/player conditions. If you’re losing 90 buyins you are either running very bad, or have moved up too fast. Or both.

-g

90BB is big swing, and a little too large to be variance. That said, you shouldn't feel that all 90 were due to error. This biggest difference between the levels in LO8, is your opponents' starting hand selection. I am guessing you killed the lower levels, got greedy, and tried to bump it up. Not a bad idea, but keep track of the competition.

In a lower LO8, game you will usually get the odds to play a very wide variety of hands. I was crushing the $0.50/$1.00, and made the jump to $1/$2. I was holding my own for about two sessions, and then had a -80BB night.

The lower limits were so loose, I literally found it profitable to play almost anything preflop. In the higher limits, this isn't going to be the case. That said, I do not advocate a super-tight approach in LO8. The most important factor to me when deciding to call or raise pre-flop is how many people I believe will enter the pot. You can check out some of my starting hand thoughts at this link, Re: consistent losing (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4046913)

On that thread, when I am talking "good", I mean the AAxx (with x being between 3-5), AK2x, A2xx (the x is 3-5) etc. and preferably double suited. With the good hands on a tight table, you may want to play aggressively after flop no matter what it is, but keep it within reason. The speculative or "mediocre" hands in the other thread, should be let go at once if speculation doesn't work (unless you can pull of a bluff, which is less often than hold'em). For example, I am loathe to fold when I have three cards under 5 before the flop (but none of them an A), but if I do not flop an A, I need some convincing information to continue with the hand.

The other most important thing is realizing when you are facing an uphill battle after the flop and letting go early. Shrug off the 90BB, but figure out what happened. My guess, from my own experience, you played too many hands when there were not enough callers because you found these same hands profitable at the lower levels. Then, you went on tilt after a couple of bad beats and watching other players scoop with trips and two pair on a dangerous board that you would have folded to.

[chaos]

You probably have a few leaks in your game that will need fixing. Have you read Ray Zee's High Low Split Poker yet?

[absentx]

Well thanks for the advice so far. Chaos, I have read a few omaha/8 books, unfortunately I havent read Zee's book yet. I do realize that is the equivalent of Hold em for advanced players. I'll get on that.

Morph, You are right in that I may have played to many hands, but I guess that is one thing I am struggling with when moving up also. What is a good flops seen % ?? During the dreaded 90BB downswing my party stats were showing me at about 25 or 26%. Way to high, or was my post flop play just awful (I think that was a big part of it)

I personally don't try to say my preflop % should be below a certain percentage. I look at the table, my cards, and try to decide if I am going to get the odds (including implied odds) on a mediocre hands. When you are above $0.50/$1.00, you should decide often that you will not. If the table is tight (two callers) and you're stuck with KKxx, you should be more reluctant to play it, because you really need to flop a king (or str8 draw if the x's are connected) in order to go anywhere at all with the hand. If there are not enough callers, you will just trickle away your stack. Going back to KKxx, if two or more people call ahead, get in the pot and see happens, and maybe raise to see if you can get position.

At higher LO8, you are going to be facing tight situations more often than not. 25-26% seems like a high percentage on a tight table though, because on a tight table, you really need to limit yourself to cards that stand a high percentage of beating AAxx, and A234, etc. I don't see those kind of cards coming up that often, but I have never done the math on that. KK won't do it that often, but when you play hands like 9-10-J-Q, you may want to get in there for a cheap flop, b/c if you connect there is a strong chance you're getting called (if not raised) down to the river.

That said, do not live in fear of AAxx, they are playing for the 2 Aces, hoping they hold, and a low. If you hit two pair with no low on the board, AAxx is in a world of hurt. Trust me, most higher LO8 players are tight-weak-aggressive, they wait so long for the good hands, they just can't let them go.

Also, I would guess that seeing 26-28% of the flops is not where you lost the bulk of your blinds. Seeing the flop in LO8 can be -EV, but unless there is a raise or two, the -EV is not as low as you think. Chasing when you're drawing dead, or hoping that you two pair or set will hold is probably the leak. Their is a thread here, and in Helmuth's Play Poker Like the Pro's, about someguy seeing every flop for a month and making money. You and I are probably not that guy, but if he can see 100%, we should be alright if we see 15%-25%, don't you think?

Call it tuition, or call it apprenticeship, whatever. Starting hand requiements are *over rated* in O8B by many players. We're not playing hold'em anymore, and most players started their poker careers playing hold'em, and at some point they realized that the first two cards were of paramount importance. Maybe I've just played so many hands of O8B that I know when I can raise with my 56 low, but I chalk up success in this game to decision making ability on the turn.


Looking at the session I have open for today, I've played just over 400 hands and my flops seem is at 37%. The amount of bets I won is insignificant in the argurment, so i'll leave that out.


IMO, playing too tight PF is deadly in O8B. IMO, playing loose PF gives you tremendous implied odds when you make a hand. This game is about recognizing what hands are out against you, and playing accordingly.


Sometimes limit O8B will seem like a lesson in futility, though.

I really reccomend that you play PLO8B.


I can't go over all the mistakes I see players make in O8B, the list is too long.


Here's my feeling regarding O8B vs. Hold'em: There are a ton of incredible hold'em players out there. There are very few incredible O8B players. Hence, developing an edge in this game is very beneficial and not too hard to do.


I reccomend that you learn how to play 7 card stud, all hi and hi/lo as something like a crosstrainer to make you a better O8B player.





Tex