suited connectors in NL

how do you usually play them? i'm more used to the limit game and the pot odds there help you but what about NL?

do you call raises with them using the 5/10 rule? and what if you hit a flop draw, do you go all in right there or just call/ semi bluff with a small raise? i know it depends on the player but is the all in on a flop draw profitable at lower stakes since the fishes call so often with tp or worse? i play 6max so i'm more interested in how to play them here instead of a full ring.

[Mercman572]

it depends. post hands and reads with them. it's usually not a bad idea to dump them in early positions though.

Something else, that I haven't noticed mentioned much is that I think small SCs are in general more valuable in a raised pot (with fewer people) than in non-raised pot with all kinds of limpers. This is the exact opposite of limit.

My reasoning is that people are playing all sorts of garbage in unraised family pots, so you are much more likely to get into trouble with a baby flush or the ignorant end of a straight, not to mention being out kicked if you flop trips. These problems can cost you your stack. However, if you play this hand in a three way pot, with position, calling a raise with big effective stacks, even if you make trip 6s with a 5 kicker, you are pretty sure your hand is good.

I wonder if people agree or disagree. Esentially you are trying to win a huge pot with these types of hands. If you agree, is this overly obvious?

[ QUOTE ]
it depends. post hands and reads with them. it's usually not a bad idea to dump them in early positions though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh and one more thing, I'm a bit of a maniac, but I raise with them in early position at overly tight tables. Its great to show them down for image, and no one puts you on a hand when you hit, and a lot of times you can pick up small pots with a continuation bet.

It should be noted that you should never do this at a loose crazy table where 4-5 people are calling raises with all the same hands they would have limped with.

[the machine]

totally agree. i like it most at a fairly tight table where there was a few limpers and a raise and only a few callers of the raise. the early limpers if they are tight usually tell you your cards are live and when you flop 2 pair you get paid off. and yeah its overly obvious because when you flop a monster hand with these cards someone usually has a good second best that pays big

[-Skeme-]

I think lots of people misplay SCs. I believe I am beginning to play them better, but overall, still a little shaky. I think the biggest misconception is that since they look pretty, can make awesome hands with concealment, and are easy to get away from, they should be played frequently. These aren't really 100% misconceptions, but I believe that unless you play them very well, you will be a loser.

Maybe better players can correct my thinking, but these are usually the conditions in which I play SCs:

1) Good position. I rarely limp UTG and EP with them in a normal game. I hate limp-calling, especially OOP, with SCs. Usually the only time I limp-call is with pairs going for set value, and this isn't nearly annoying as they play themselves postflop. SCs make draws.. and as we all know, draws SUCK when you're out of position, and even moreso against a PFR.

2) Facing a raise. If I am facing a raise, I'll only call if I have a decent read on the opponent and position. If I don't have either, I'll only call if a decent amount of opponent's have called inbetween the PFR and I. SCs are multiway hands, indeed.

3) Opponents are not nuts. This could be very wrong, but as I understand it, a big part of playing SCs is getting aggressive with your draws. More often than not you will flop a draw as opposed to a made hand. Obviously more often than not you will miss. It is my understanding, and my old PT SC DB (I sound like an eye chart) back this up, that if you aren't aggressive enough with your draws, you will be a SC loser. Just calling down with your draw made me a loser with SCs.. hopefully I'll change that by playing them more aggressively.

If I have position, sometimes I will raise my draws if I think it will make my opponent either, a) concede the pot immediately, or b) make a mistake by giving me a free card on the turn. If the opponent is aggressive himself, I will just call and try and hit my hand. If I miss by the turn and he bets hard, I'll fold. I try not to tangle with solid, aggressive players with SCs. They'll probably sniff out your draw and make you pay dearly for it, and even when you hit, they'll probably not pay you off.

Anyways, that's my take on SCs. Hopefully it'll generate some more discussion from players with a better understanding of them. Hope I could help.

[PokerFink]

I generally dump them up front and limp with them IP if others limp in. I will open raise them in CO/BTN.

Generally, I ignore the 5/10 rule when calling PFR. I don't call that many raises with SC or small pairs, unless they're minraises or the pot is multiway. I do like the idea of calling a PFR in a 3-way or 4-way pot with something like 56s though.

(Note: I play a pretty different strategy than the prescribed textbook multi-table 2p2 strategy)

[-Skeme-]

-----
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (7 handed)

MP1 ($208.70)
MP2 ($159.95)
CO ($236.60)
Button ($133.05)
SB ($239.30)
Hero ($226.20)
UTG ($539.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls $5, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($18) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $8</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $26</font>, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $52

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Hero wins $52. </font>
-----

[pokerjoker]

Skeme-
I would much rather play any hand against opponents that are nuts.

For this reason

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero ($297.40)
SB ($191)
BB ($209.95)
UTG ($203.86)
UTG+1 ($232)
UTG+2 ($336.86)
MP1 ($160.10)
MP2 ($58)
MP3 ($186)
CO ($140.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls $8, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($19) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $15</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $45</font>, UTG calls $180.86 (All-In), Hero calls $150.86.

Turn: ($410.72) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($410.72) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $410.72

VILLAN SHOWS AJo

As far as general play I play any suited connectors with good position up to a 4x BB raise, sometimes a bit more than that if there are a few people involved.

POSITION IS HUGE WITH THESE. Do not limp OOP and definately don't call raises OOP.

I limp suited 1 gappers in a multiway pot with position or call a small raise if there are tons of fish in the pot and I have position.

Also know when to fold. Just because u floped a flush draw does not mean it is time to start semibluffing or even calling when Villian pots it to you on the flop.

Skeme,

I think some of your points are on, and some of them are right in some games, but throwing away a ton of value in others. I think a lot of my profit comes from how I play suited connectors (and one-gappers and occasionally non-suited connectors). The profit is not neccessarily in these hands, although they are profitable in themself, but really in the image it creates and the action it gives me on my good hands.



[ QUOTE ]

1) Good position. I rarely limp UTG and EP with them in a normal game. I hate limp-calling, especially OOP, with SCs. Usually the only time I limp-call is with pairs going for set value, and this isn't nearly annoying as they play themselves postflop. SCs make draws.. and as we all know, draws SUCK when you're out of position, and even moreso against a PFR.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in tight games, or even in loose games where people are tight if there is a raise preflop but loose otherwise, I will raise a suited connector UTG. I do this for a number of reasons:
1)deception - if i hit a monster no one will ever think i hit and i can win a big pot.
2)Continuation bets win a lot of pots UTG against half decent opponents.
3)I love showing this whether I win the pot on not, after 2 of these, people start to play back at me and I tighten up. You can wind up getting all in with AA, KK sometimes. Its grat for the image, people stop ever believing you have a hand. This leads to big pots (and unfortunately big suckouts /images/graemlins/wink.gif). It iincreases your variance, but winning sessions can be hugh.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Facing a raise. If I am facing a raise, I'll only call if I have a decent read on the opponent and position. If I don't have either, I'll only call if a decent amount of opponent's have called inbetween the PFR and I. SCs are multiway hands, indeed.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is my biggest disagreement. I don't think SCs are great mulitway hands in no limit (they are exactly what you would like to have for a big mulitway pot in limit however). I will still play them, but I think you need to be very careful with them at a really loose table with lots of people who limp in with garbage hands. This greatly increases your odds of making trips with a bad kicker, the ignorant end of a straight, or getting trapped with flush over flush.

Like you said, they are great to play to a raise against sane ABC opponents, and especially against opponents who can't get off a big hand, and will throw away a hand if you bet big and they missed. Your example hand you posted was a great for this.

[ QUOTE ]

3) Opponents are not nuts. This could be very wrong, but as I understand it, a big part of playing SCs is getting aggressive with your draws. More often than not you will flop a draw as opposed to a made hand. Obviously more often than not you will miss. It is my understanding, and my old PT SC DB (I sound like an eye chart) back this up, that if you aren't aggressive enough with your draws, you will be a SC loser. Just calling down with your draw made me a loser with SCs.. hopefully I'll change that by playing them more aggressively.

If I have position, sometimes I will raise my draws if I think it will make my opponent either, a) concede the pot immediately, or b) make a mistake by giving me a free card on the turn. If the opponent is aggressive himself, I will just call and try and hit my hand. If I miss by the turn and he bets hard, I'll fold. I try not to tangle with solid, aggressive players with SCs. They'll probably sniff out your draw and make you pay dearly for it, and even when you hit, they'll probably not pay you off.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this as well, but this is a very advanced play, and too many people have read super system and make horrible plays with little to no fold equity. But in this case you need to clarify non nuts: meaning they can actually fold a good starting hand.

But in this example you called a raise OOP, and it worked out very well for you.

[pokerjoker]

[ QUOTE ]
But in this example you called a raise OOP, and it worked out very well for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have OOP and in position mixed up. It is almost always desirable to act last in Hold 'em.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
Skeme-
I would much rather play any hand against opponents that are nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. The majority of the time you continue on past the flop, you will have a draw. When you luck out and hit trips against TPTK, sure it's great to be against a nutcase, but more often than not, I don't think so.

dd323, I sometimes do raise UTG and EP with them, and sometimes limp as well, but mostly I will fold. Do you have any cool SC hands to show your overall type of play with them? Thanks.

this is a great thread, i wasn't expecting this much. thanks guys /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[pokerjoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Skeme-
I would much rather play any hand against opponents that are nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. The majority of the time you continue on past the flop, you will have a draw. When you luck out and hit trips against TPTK, sure it's great to be against a nutcase, but more often than not, I don't think so.



[/ QUOTE ]

Also opponents that are nuts will likely play like [censored] post flop. If they are passive calling stations and I flop a draw I just check and see a free turn then bet if I hit. Maybe its just my stats but in the 10,000-15,000 hands or so since I started playing SCs more I have made a considerable ammount more off stacking donks than semibluffing $30 pots from TAGS.

[-Skeme-]

That's called a fish, not a nut. Nut meant maniac.

[pokerjoker]

I guess we can agree to disagree then.
Although I rarely find players that raise anything pf then constantly PSB on the flop. Usually people liek this are stupid enough to slowplay when they actually have something. In My experience there is quite a bit of overlap between fish and maniac.
I guess we don't need to fight over terms here, I suspect we actually play somewhat the same.

[-Skeme-]

Nobody is debating that fish and maniacs are different. I am simply telling you that when I referred to a certain player as a "nut" I meant an aggressive player, not a loose-passive one.

[BlackRain]

I am very position conscious with these hands, folding almost all the time in EP and MP. I generally don't like to call raises with these hands unless I have position and it is multiway. I raise these when folded to me in LP almost all the time. I am not a big fan of them in general, I suspect they may be overrated by many players.