The Peter Rus rule

[J_V]

Peter Rus rule: Someone raises, somebody coldcalls, and you are in the big blind and play expertly, you should defend all suited cards.

There is a Sklansky thread where he advocates the same thing with 73s.

I haven't been playing limit holdem very much lately and don't have a healthy database to draw from, but my guess is I'm not making money in the most marginal spots. Now it's probably because I suck at poker, but I'd like to see if people are making money in these spots.

If people checked their databases (even if you only have a small sample in this spot), I think it could generate some intersting discussion.

[baronzeus]

i have been doing this for a long time. i will post my PT numbers but id suggest just filtering for trash suited hands.

[ike]

I read the thread where peter_rus first elaborated on this point and started doing it. I have a little over 100K hands in the party 30 and more in other games following this rule but am a complete pokertracker retard. I'll post my numbers if someone explains to me like I'm a four year old how to get them.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
i have been doing this for a long time. i will post my PT numbers but id suggest just filtering for trash suited hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


i filtered for the following hands:

T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)


(0.36) BB/hand, so +.14 from folding.

[ike]

No fair counting hands that can make straights. We want to know if the worst of the worst is winning. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[stoxtrader]

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[ QUOTE ]
i have been doing this for a long time. i will post my PT numbers but id suggest just filtering for trash suited hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

i filtered for the following hands:

T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)


(0.36) BB/hand, so +.14 from folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you also choose a raised pot?

i filtered for all suited hands in a raised pot with 3+ players seeing the flop, and only got 203 trials for a 125k database (this is from full ring 15/30 and 30/60)

[Robk]

i think people may be putting words in peters mouth. in the thread where i think this rule originated, peter presented strong evidence that the worst suited hands were not always profitable.

heres the first filter:

Q7s-,J7s-,T7s-, 96s-, 85s-,74s-,63s-,52s,42s,32s:

3 way flop: total hands 381, -0.33bb/h, W$WSF 19%, wtSD 23.48, w$SD 55.06%.
4+ way flop: total hands 383, -0.31bb/h, W$WSF 14.66%, wtSD 23.04, w$SD 52.27%

even at this sample size it looks clear that this group of hands is +EV on average. but of course that doesnt mean each of the hands is +EV. heres a 2nd filter from the same thread:

I try to move out Q's and J's from that list and here are results:

3-way: 216 hands,-0.57bb/h
4+-way: 224 hands, -0.27bb/h

Of course the sample size here is small. but with the group losing money on average it seems unlikely all the hands are +EV. in this post peter wrote:

Looks like i can safely remove most trashy suited hands from defending 3-way especially when original raiser is UTG-MP and very likely to have overpair

one last filter from the thread, suited trash ( T2s 92s 82s 72s T3s 93s 83s 73s T4s 94s 84s )

3-way: 109 hands, -0.62bb/h
4+-way: 116 hands, -0.35bb/h

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't PT count hands where you post in late position as being the big blind?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
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i have been doing this for a long time. i will post my PT numbers but id suggest just filtering for trash suited hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

i filtered for the following hands:

T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)


(0.36) BB/hand, so +.14 from folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you also choose a raised pot?

i filtered for all suited hands in a raised pot with 3+ players seeing the flop, and only got 203 trials for a 125k database (this is from full ring 15/30 and 30/60)

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i chose raised pots for those hands /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't PT count hands where you post in late position as being the big blind?

[/ QUOTE ]


i have no idea...if this is true, then i cant imagine much of a difference, because i rarely post in the CO

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
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T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't PT count hands where you post in late position as being the big blind?

[/ QUOTE ]


i have no idea...if this is true, then i cant imagine much of a difference, because i rarely post in the CO

[/ QUOTE ]

really? why not? i thought there was little debate as to whether or not posting in the CO was profitable.

[baronzeus]

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[ QUOTE ]
T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't PT count hands where you post in late position as being the big blind?

[/ QUOTE ]


i have no idea...if this is true, then i cant imagine much of a difference, because i rarely post in the CO

[/ QUOTE ]

really? why not? i thought there was little debate as to whether or not posting in the CO was profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]


i always forget to post when i first sit and by the time i realize i should post im in mp..althought recently ive been posting more...thing is i mostly play short handed so its usually not much more profitable...probably even EV

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
T2s-T6s, 92s-96s, 82s-85s, 72s-75s, 62s-64s, 52s-54s, 42s-43s, 32s.

3 players seeing a flop, in the big blind, put money in (VPIPed)

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't PT count hands where you post in late position as being the big blind?

[/ QUOTE ]


i have no idea...if this is true, then i cant imagine much of a difference, because i rarely post in the CO

[/ QUOTE ]

really? why not? i thought there was little debate as to whether or not posting in the CO was profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]


i always forget to post when i first sit and by the time i realize i should post im in mp..althought recently ive been posting more...thing is i mostly play short handed so its usually not much more profitable...probably even EV

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I've been 8tabling party full games lately, I forgot you could play poker with less than ten people.

[Peter_rus]

Thanks for posting this. I'm actually tired to clarify everywhere about this stuff. I'm smiling occasionally when finding some posts in small stakes looking like "Pretend to be Peter_rus - Defending with suited trash 3-way". People just missing rake structure there which force a lot of defending hands to wipe. I really don't know why calling suited trash 3-way-rule becomes so popular and always associated with my name. There are a lot more interesting things in TH, which i posted but people like this "rule" more. Just examining PT and find out how are you running in certain spots is easy and doesn't make much sense.

Currently,I use to muck many suited trash below J's in not stealing situations. Also quality of games and level of players is now higher that i faced at old 15/30 so i can't make such good profitability i got earlier, though i'm still defending a lot.

[andyfox]

"There is a Sklansky thread where he advocates the same thing with 73s."

Wasn't the 7-3s thread from the small blind for one more chip?

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
"There is a Sklansky thread where he advocates the same thing with 73s."

Wasn't the 7-3s thread from the small blind for one more chip?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. He advocates calling all SBs for 1 chip, except for metagame considerations.

The 73s hand is if an expert UTG raises and one decent player calls, you should call in the BB.

I think.

Josh

[Josh W]

Where are you a moderator?

[Sponger15SB]

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Where are you a moderator?

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Politics forum.

[ QUOTE ]
one last filter from the thread, suited trash ( T2s 92s 82s 72s T3s 93s 83s 73s T4s 94s 84s )

3-way: 109 hands, -0.62bb/h
4+-way: 116 hands, -0.35bb/h



[/ QUOTE ]

Could we modify the rule to be almost always true by saying if there's a raiser and two cold callers you should call with any 2 suited cards in the big blind?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one last filter from the thread, suited trash ( T2s 92s 82s 72s T3s 93s 83s 73s T4s 94s 84s )

3-way: 109 hands, -0.62bb/h
4+-way: 116 hands, -0.35bb/h



[/ QUOTE ]

Could we modify the rule to be almost always true by saying if there's a raiser and two cold callers you should call with any 2 suited cards in the big blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

i just filtered for the same hands and got 180 instances, (.14) bb/hand, 3 ppl to the flop.

[mike l.]

"There is a Sklansky thread where he advocates the same thing with 73s"

that's if youre all in preflop.

[mike l.]

if i recall correctly the 73s call is if you are going all in preflop.

[Glenn]

FWIW I defend with a ton of hands HU and anything suited 4 way but I play a little tighter 3 way. It's a tough spot to play low pairs out of position against mulitple opponents even if you do play expertly.

[rory]

What if you only had 1 BB left in your stack? What about 1.5 BB? 2 BB? What would be the worst amount of BB to have left in your stack?

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
if i recall correctly the 73s call is if you are going all in preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 5.5:1 odds on an all-in call, I think it's correct to call any 2:

equity (%)
15.9 { 72o }
48.1 { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }
36.0 { TT-77, AJs-ATs, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo }

Getting 5.5:1 odds on an all-in, we need 15.4% equity. Rake might make 72o barely unprofitable. This illustrates the power of having a short stack.

I think it's correct if you play well. Also it depends on the blind structure, but for general purposes it would be correct if you played "expertly"


Tex

Hi Baron,

With a raiser and 2 cold callers it would be 4 to the flop. 3 to the flop is the original rule.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Baron,

With a raiser and 2 cold callers it would be 4 to the flop. 3 to the flop is the original rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that is what i filtered for (3 to the flop). 4 to the flop is slightly better but only .02BB/hand