5/10 NL SH--chip spewing? (deep stacks)

[tdarko]

5/10 NL 4-handed

i had been really aggressive, raising almost every pot. all three players are on the tight side and are getting run over.

Stacks:
Hero- $2150
BB- $1890

Hero on the button with 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif raises to $30, BB re-raises to $125, Hero calls.

flop ($255) 2 3 7 (suits do not matter)

BB bets $200, Hero calls.

turn ($655) 2 3 7 6

BB bets $300, Hero goes all-in for $1825

comments before the flop and all streets welcome.

[stoxtrader]

PF I would call also because of stack sizes.

Flop is fine as well, you have good implied odds for a 5 outer, and you often have the best hand, though it cant stand any heat unimproved.

I think the interesting part is your push rather than a smaller raise or a river push. an overpair is certainlyl likely to call given your description, and I definitely put villain on TT-AA, but I think a smaller raise is also a viable play.

[scdavis0]

6 high is not best on the flop

[stoxtrader]

great. for some reason I thought hero made a pair with his 4.

sorry about that. I'd edit my post cause there is still time, but then your wouldnt make sense, so just disregard it.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
6 high is not best on the flop



[/ QUOTE ]
do i have to have the best hand to "just" call?

i had made this move a couple times with big hands so i figured i would make a "floating call" to see what happens on the turn, if it would give me a chance to steal this pot.

i was actually thinking an Ace would be a good card for me to steal this with as i have him on 10's and higher. it just happened that i hit a pair, which i still doubt gave me the best hand, but you have to look at this hand from his perspective. the board reads 2 3 6 7 and i have been showing an extrememly wide range of hands so it isn't far off for that board to have hit me. i could have a lot of hands that beat his pair.

so against a tightie why not make a loose call on a connected flop to see what happens with a deep stack?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Looks good to me. It's just a pot sized raise so obviously if you're raising, pushing is the only way to go. And sometimes you'll have the best hand, sometimes you'll fold out the best hand, and sometimes you'll suck out on the best hand. Seems quite +EV to me.

[howzit]

If you make your hand on the river, your hand is very hard to get paid off on so generally I don't like calling. You'll have to tag him on the river for ~$300 on the river for neutral EV, which would be pretty easy.

BTW, you'll need to have him fold ~35-40% of the time if you assume you got 9 clean outs.

Given your image and the price (955:300), i think calling might be better here. he may check the river and then you can bluff at a better price if you have a tendency to slowplay to the river.

[scdavis0]

You say that suits don't matter but it does matter if there was a flush draw on the flop.

It might lean the decision towards calling because of river bluff outs.

[psuasskicker]

Flop call when villain has $1,565 behind is ugly. Maybe your 4 and 6 are outs, but you clearly were gonna commit your whole stack on the turn if you hit (cause you did), and I don't know how many people will lay down a hand that beats you. Clearly if you're called you're beat.

You're getting 10.1 to 1 from his stack + pot on that flop. I don't think that's enough to call.

Only way I like the turn all in is if either you can get a hand as good as QQ to lay down because of how WT he is, or get a hand as weak as maybe AQ to call cause he's tired of getting pushed around. He bet twice. Looks to me like he likes his hand, and he's only got $1,265 behind with the pot now at over $2,500. Not likely he's gonna fold with many if anything that beats you.

Looks like spew to me.

- C -

[howzit]

BTW, if you had AA, this is line is perfect.

[flawless_victory]

PF call is naaaasty... thats too expensive.
postflop i like it all.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
PF call is naaaasty... thats too expensive.


[/ QUOTE ]
i figured you would chime in with that. if you thought that was bad you should have seen some of the other PF calls /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[captZEEbo1]

I bet a big pair looks you up here

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF call is naaaasty... thats too expensive.


[/ QUOTE ]
i figured you would chime in with that.

[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm, really?
im quite a bit looser than the average 2P2er, i think...

[creedofhubris]

Stacks are big enough that you can call the preflop rr if you choose. But your plan is now to flop big or fold. The first time he reraises, treat it like it really is QQ-AA.

Easiest is to throw it away preflop. Take a long time though before you do it, so they think you're tossing good cards.

Given that you called preflop, fold flop.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Stacks are big enough that you can call the preflop rr if you choose. But your plan is now to flop big or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how these can both be correct. You aren't getting odds to outflop AA-QQ.

[GimmeDaWatch]

so against a tightie why not make a loose call on a connected flop to see what happens with a deep stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz tighty don't trust you and tighty dont wanna fold his overpair.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stacks are big enough that you can call the preflop rr if you choose. But your plan is now to flop big or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how these can both be correct. You aren't getting odds to outflop AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice deep stacks, we have 20:1 implied odds. I could be wrong, but I think we have at least a 5% chance of outflopping a big pair.

I would also count a flush draw or OESD as flopping big. Certainly we have a fair chance of flopping one of those.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stacks are big enough that you can call the preflop rr if you choose. But your plan is now to flop big or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how these can both be correct. You aren't getting odds to outflop AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice deep stacks, we have 20:1 implied odds. I could be wrong, but I think we have at least a 5% chance of outflopping a big pair.

I would also count a flush draw or OESD as flopping big. Certainly we have a fair chance of flopping one of those.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you flop something nice and lose. Are you factoring that in? With this hand I think you should want to see better than 20:1 and you aren't. I would also want to know he is a tight re-raiser and that he will pay me off postflop. Against someone who is not known to take a big pair way too far postflop I think you had better either be able to steal postflop to augment your EV occasionally or you had better fold preflop.

[Allinlife]

anyone else like a smaller raise over push? I think it may yield higher folding equity

[Kirkrrr]

PF is fine, both the raise and the call. On the turn, things get interesting... his weak bet screams to get raised, so it would be hard not to. Problem is, the pot has already gotten too big, and there's no reason for him to assume you had him beat pre-flop, so you're trying to convince him you a) caught your gutshot or b) made two-pair/set. Both possible, but I think it's a pretty tough sell, and given your super-aggro image at that point, he'll be inclined to disbelieve.

I think this would've been better if suits did matter, since then you have "flush" outs, too, so you can still call the turn, then push a flush/7 pairing, or any other scary river. As played, I'd feel nauseated but fold on the turn.

Kirk

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stacks are big enough that you can call the preflop rr if you choose. But your plan is now to flop big or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how these can both be correct. You aren't getting odds to outflop AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice deep stacks, we have 20:1 implied odds. I could be wrong, but I think we have at least a 5% chance of outflopping a big pair.

I would also count a flush draw or OESD as flopping big. Certainly we have a fair chance of flopping one of those.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you flop something nice and lose. Are you factoring that in? With this hand I think you should want to see better than 20:1 and you aren't. I would also want to know he is a tight re-raiser and that he will pay me off postflop. Against someone who is not known to take a big pair way too far postflop I think you had better either be able to steal postflop to augment your EV occasionally or you had better fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP has said that he's running over the table, which to me means that they're going to take their big pairs too far, assuming he's stealing yet again. No info on how tight a reraiser villain is, true. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the statement that OP is running over everyone and raising constantly. To me, that means BIG PAYOFF when you hit against someone who finally decides to take a stand.

I'm a big fan of Ciaffone's rule of 5 and 10 when it comes to calling reraises: a raise of less than 5% of opponent's stack is a call, more than 10 is a fold. This is less than 5.

I also have no problems with a fold, of course. That's why I said "should you choose" in my response. The option of folding is good for your variance, and it's what I usually do, I must admit.

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK, seems like we're pretty much on the same page. I think if it were, say, 30:1 it would definitely be a call. If it were 10:1 it would definitely be a fold. At 20:1 it seems close to me and I would fold. Seems like you would, too, most of the time. And the times I would call would be when I have a good read on the guy and think that I will know when he's likely to pay me off and when I'm likely to be able to steal.

[tdarko]

BB called the all-in with AK. river bricked, i won the pot. i guess he put me on AQ /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

"chip spewing" was in the title b/c no matter the results there needs to be thought behind the actions. i have to say no matter my image i was surprised he called with Ace high. i guess he wasn't going to be pushed around anymore, but its a cash game with deep stacks? seems odd. whatever.

now i have a question. some say the post flop play was good and some say the preflop play was terrible, i personally would play preflop the same way shorthanded against the opponents in this particular game the way things had been going again...now postflop i feel i may do things different (that weak bet needed to be raised not pushed as mentioned, pushing does kind of scream for a call).

i feel i was fortunate this time b/c more times than not a winner calls me down there. like Zeebo said "i think a big pair looks you up here," well hell ace high did so i think anything was going to, so my question is this, does that make it a good or bad play?

i have a player on tilt willing to call his stack off with Ace high but i have him read wrong and am trying to push him of 10's and higher...man glad my pair of 6's-4 kicker was good /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.