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davidross
07-06-2003, 11:52 AM
The experiment is all but over. Another horrible night has left me in a very bad position. The bankroll can’t withstand another week of this. I am going to have to find a real paying job very quickly or dip into long term savings. I’ve only had 3 winning days in the last 17 days. My confidence is shattered and I’m doubting everything. I keep waiting for one of those days where the deck hits me in the face instead of kicking me in the ass. I’m blaming Party for this. I decided to take a break from paradise and was up $60 for my first hour when the Party servers crashed…again. So I went over to paradise and got into a good 8/16 game and a 5/10. At the 5/10 the guy on my left was horrible. Truly awful. And he took me for $250 in 2 orbits. AK losing to A3. QQ losing to J4s (remember he’s on my left and calling my raises with these hands), and the coup de grace, my AQs (which made a flush on the turn) losing to T8o when he made a boat on the river. I ended up at 2 good 8/16 games and down over $1200 within 90 minutes. I had won 6% of my first 200 hands, and 17% when I saw the flop. 10% of my showdowns etc. It was awful. Luckily I did go on a run, I was just too far down to get even. In fact once again I should have quit when the 1st 8/16 game broke around 4:00 AM because I was only down $500 then. In the last 2 orbits I played I came 2nd in 3 heads up hands and gave back a couple more c notes. Ended up down $700 at paradise. 8/16 is out for me now. I can’t afford any more days like that.

The one hand that helped save my night and started my comeback. UTG raises and gets 3 cold callers. I’m in the SB with 99 and I call too. BB plays as well and 6 see the flop. Flop is 4 4 8 rainbow. UTG bets and gets called twice, then my buddy Looba raises from the button. He would make this play with an 8 so I 3 bet to see if maybe I can get heads up with him. BB calls all 3 (Spider sense tingling), UTG calls too, 2 folds and Looba calls too. OK there is no way I’m ahead and I’m done with this hand. Turn is a 9. Yippee!! I bet, and all 3 call me. River is a 6, and I bet again. BB raises (Yep there’s the 4 and if I’m lucky its 64 or 84) UTG calls 2 more, Looba folds (JJ he told me later) and I 3 bet it. They both call. BB had A4 and UTG had TT. Biggest pot I’ve ever won $413.

I’ve gotten a lot of supportive words and advice from everyone and I’m reading it all searching for an answer. Again, I’m probably not playing my best, but I’m not playing bad enough to justify these losses. I am getting cold decked like crazy. I had AK against AA 3 times last night and flopped an A or K every time. You can’t put that down heads up. I had KK vs AA and on and on. Rigoletto suggested I’ve gotten too loose pre-flop, but I don’t think that’s it. If anything I’ve tightened up, but I am probably going too far post flop with 2nd best hands. I seem to flop 2nd pair every time. Of course top pair is always out there. Then I laid down a $285 winner (AT) because of the betting and saw KT beat 99 on a board of QJTxx. Timing is everything and right now I’m making the wrong moves every time. I think I’ll concentrate on Party again for a couple of days and see what happens.

Wednesday

And the beat goes on. I tried a suggestion I was given from a poster and played 3 3/6 games at Party this afternoon. The thought being there are lots more bad players in the 3/6 games. I didn’t have any problems following the 3 games so that was good. But my luck was still bad. You can’t get anyone to fold in these games even to 2 or 3 bets on the flop. Everyone wants to see the turn. So if your hand holds up you really get paid, but of course you get run down a lot, and I did. I was up for most of the session, then in the last ½ hour I played, I had a terrible run. KK cracked twice, and a couple of draws that didn’t get there and a small win turned into a $250 loss.

Evening

Again I got off to a better start playing 2 5/10 games at Party. Strangely enough it was free plays from the BB that put me ahead. 75o flopped a straight and T3o flopped trips and turned to a boat . On both hands I got raised on the turn and made a nice profit. Then for 2 hours I just hovered between up $100 and $150. Then the curse hit me again. In half an hour I lost my entire buy in on one table. Because my Party bankroll is so limited (and I can’t replenish it now) I just played down to my all-in (Where I made 2 pair but lost to a bigger 2 pair). Maybe I’m not folding early enough but can you fold this hand? 4 limpers to me on the button with Ac 4c. I limp too. Flop is A J 4 rainbow, no club. Checked to MP who bets. I raise, he re-raises and I just call. We are heads up. He bets the last two streets and I just call. He had AJ. This has happened to me again and again. I just can’t see how I could have saved any money. Fortunately on my other table (Where 2+2’er Jim Easton was on my right) we had the maniac of all maniacs. He was playing loose for the entire session, but all of a sudden he snapped and started raising every time the play was on him. Every street. With nothing. I was fortunate enough to win 4 pots during this run where the pots would be around $200 even heads up. I also lost 1 where I 3 bet him with 77 to isolate and he had 87. He made a runner runner straight to take me down. But I had quad Kings against his unimproved 73s and he still capped the turn and river. That was nice. I ended up ahead $320 on that table to put me up $70 for the evening and down $180 for the day at Party.

After I had busted out of the 2nd table at Party I played 1 5/10 table at Paradise. I must be on their sh**-list because I played 100 hands and won 3. I’m not kidding 3. And the first 2 were really tiny. Luckily I won a big pot at the end of the end of the session to finish down only $150 there. Sigh!! One of these days I’m going to break out, I just hope it’s before I run out of money.

Thursday

Finally a good day in the davidross household. First off I got the cheque from the one day of work I did a few weeks ago. So I’m ahead for the day no matter what. I decided to give the 3/6 games at Party another try and again played 3 tables. There are truly some horrible players, and in the long run I have to be able to beat these games. The connection to Party was horrible though and a true test of my patience. Disconnections happened at least once every 5 minutes to everyone making the games very slow. I would say we saw less than half the hands we normally would. I played a long afternoon session between settling childrens arguments and scheduling their weekend plans and get togethers. And for the first two hours the misery continued. I had to rebuy on one table putting my entire Party bankroll in play, and it was down to around $350 at one point. Then an interesting thing happened. My wife came and sat with me. She had been alerted by the kids telling her that daddy was swearing and yelling at the computer, and that he was losing all our money playing poker. I guess I need to be more careful when they are around. And I think the losing streak is getting to me. She told me to change my attitude and promised me a night of “mind blowing” sex if I could win $700. And guess what. I started to win. Party has this annoying cheer and fireworks that goes off when you win a hand. And as it started to play more often for me I think I developed a Pavlovian response to hearing it. I get sexually aroused every time it plays now. I made a great rally and came from $250 down to a win of $157 for 5 hours of play. I saw a glimmer of hope.

2 hands that I don’t know how to play any different.

I open raise with Kc Ks in MP. I get 2 callers plus the BB. Flop comes Ad 9s 7s…of course. I contemplated check/folding the way things have been going, but I bet. Only one caller. Turn is Ts. I now have some extra outs…maybe. So I check, and he bets. Without the spade I think I bet once more because I’d like to see the showdown. I just call. River is the 6c, I check he bets and I reluctantly call. Should I lay it down here? He had Ac Tc.

2nd hand. I have A7o in the SB and there is 1 limper to me and I call. The BB raises. Crap, here I go again. To be honest I should probably fold here. But I called. Now of course the flop contains an Ace. A J 2 to be exact. I check and he bets. MP folds and I call. I don’t know what else I can do here. I just keep getting cold decked. There is some chance he has a big pair and I can’t see folding here. Turn is a 4, check l, and the river brings a 7…did I just turn the tables and suck out on someone else? I bet, he calls and my A7 beats his AQ. Maybe the worm has turned.

Evening

I went to paradise again and promised myself I’d stay at the 5/10 tables. The law of averages was enforced and after my 2% win rate the night before I won 21% of my first 150 hands, winning 100% of my showdowns and 50% of the hands where I saw the flop. I also very quickly reached my $700 goal. I think my wife has become my poker Muse. She went to bed telling me to wake her when I came up. Like I needed to be reminded. Actually for 2 hours I just broke even and even lost a bit to fall below my $700 goal, leaving me an interesting ethical dilemma…nah I wouldn’t have told her, before going on another rush to finish with a $900 paradise win and a $1050 overall day. Lets hope it’s the start of a new streak.

I still had some big losses, but they’re not nearly as hard to take when you’re actually making some hands. In fact I don’t think my hand selection was any different. But when I flopped top pair, they held up, and when I bet out with middle pair, everyone folded. For two weeks I was always second best. And I had the confidence to run some bluffs, and I ran some beauties last night. But of course that’s the difference between running good and running bad.

Very early in the paradise session this hand came up. It is a perfect example of the difference between running good and running bad. I open raised with AQo. The button 3 bet me and we were heads up. Flop came T high rainbow. I checked and he bet. I hate AQ in this situation, AK I will see the showdown almost every time, but a normal player isn’t 3 betting with less than AQ. But I didn’t know this guy at all, and there are a lot of players at paradise who like to make plays from the button. I decided to go to the showdown. Turn and river were small cards, there were some straight possibilities but I wasn’t too concerned with them. He bet each street and I called, including the river. He turned over QJs and I won a nice sized pot.

I had several monster vs monster hands too. I lost AK to AA twice, once an A flopped and once a K. I lost QQ to KK and I had KQs vs KK when a K and a Q flopped I pushed real hard and again lost a biggie. Imagine my bottom line without those hands. But I beat AA with KQ when a K flopped and a Q turned, and I flopped several sets for big pots too. I flopped 2 pair 7 times and 5 of them held up. In the last week none of them had held up. And then there are those harder to play hands. I had 8d 5d in the BB and got a free play against an UTG limp, and the SB. Flop was 9 5 3, with one diamond. BB checked and I bet. They both folded. I either wouldn’t have had the nerve to bet, or I would have bet and got raised last week, so I don’t know if this is a good play or not.

So off I went to bed, and she was true to her word ;-). I’ve found a new motivation.

Friday

Another day started off well, my cheque from Paradise arrived. I certainly have no complaints about that service. They courier cheques to me within 48 hours everytime. Very good service. I played 3 3/6 tables at Party again this afternoon. They seem to have fixed their connection problems as the pace of play for 3 tables was very quick. I had another very good session winning $520 in 4 hours. My wife informed me yesterdays offer still stands so with a little luck it could be another good night for davidross..wink wink.

A couple of observations. It’s not possible to pay proper attention at 3 games so I’m limited to playing ABC poker. Maybe that’s good for me. No slowplaying and very little semi-bluffing. To be very honest that’s probably the best way to play many of these tables. I got very good cards and played almost perfectly I think. One hand where I erred went like this. I got a free play with K8o in the BB. 3 limpers I think. Flop comes K J 6 with 2 hearts. I don’t have a heart. I checked. I don’t like leading with a weak top pair, especially on tables where no one will fold anyway, and someone with KT for example will not raise. So I check and hope for a bet from the button. I will fold to an EP bet usually. In this case the bet came from the middle of the 3 players. I was paying attention to another table when my turn to play came up. The button had folded and the play was on me and I raised. I like this play a lot if the bet came from the button, but in my experience, the guy betting with people to act behind him has top pair more often than not. I was called by the MP only. I bet the turn which was a 2 or 3 and he called. Another small card rivered and I bet again. I think I should have checked here since most of the K’s I could beat were now 2 pair. On the other hand a J might call me down. Anyway he called and showed KT. I think had I been able to analyze this a little longer before acting I would probably have folded to the flop bet.

For the first time in my life I’m disappointed that the Canadian dollar is doing so well against the US greenback. When I was a kid the two currencies were on par. I have vacationed in Maine my entire life, and in the 60’s and early 70’s we could use Canadian money everywhere. In the mid 70’s when we had the French separation issues, and our government began running up massive debt, the dollars began to drift apart and vending machines had to be changed so they wouldn’t accept Canadian coins anymore (they are the exact same size, but now made of different alloys so machines can detect the Canadian coins). So every summer when I had to pay for my cottage in US dollars I would complain about the exchange rate. Now finally I am earning money in US dollars and in the last 3 months the Canadian dollar has come back 17 cents. In February I got 1.50 for every $1 US. I cashed out to buy my TV and home entertainment system. Now I’m getting 1.33 only. My timing sucks.

The extra concentration required for 3 tables took it’s toll. 4 hours was about all I could handle of that. I’ll have to see if I can stretch it out little by little. With the kids home from school now I’d like to adjust the schedule to not play so late at might and be able to get aup a little earlier in the morning.

Evening. A disappointing session. I managed to win $120 at Paradise, but I was up $400 at one point earlier. I got off to a terrific start again, but went card dead for the last 2 hours. Hardly played a hand, and lost with every one I played. QQ got beat 3 times, twice on river Aces which makes it even more expensive, and AK lost to a cold calling AJ twice.

An interesting hand. I have been accused of being “weak tight” before and this hand won’t change the mind of those who share that belief. I’m not sure if I a) shouldn’t have played at all b) Needed to play it more aggressively or c) needed to call it down.

I have Kh 7h on the button and I open raise. SB raises. He’s on my immediate left and we have tangled a few times. His raising standards are much lower than my own, including very weak Aces. Now the BB times out and go’s all in. Flop is Kc 8h 4s. SB bets and I just call. Turn was 2h and I called his bet. River brought the Ad and I folded. He turned over QQ. Aaargh. All in boy had K3 and took a small part of my pot. I needed to raise the flop at least. He may still have raised me back, he’s that aggressive, but with a bigger pot I would probably have called it down.

I am now up $700 going into the last day of this abbreviated week.

Saturday

Played a short 2 ½ hour afternoon session. 3 3/6 tables at Party again and these games are so juicy. There are some truly terrible players here. That puts some dead money in more often than not. I managed another $240 win.

Then I took my 3 younger kids and one of my daughters’ friends to go see “Finding Nemo”. What a terrific movie. If you haven’t seen it, find a kid and take him/her. Money well spent.

This one could have cost me a lot more. In a 6 way raised pot I called in the BB with Ts 2s. I think 11-1 is enough for a suited hand but I admit it’s loose. You hope for a flop like the one I got Td Th 7d. While I’m trying to figure out whether to play fast or slow the SB bets. I just call, and it gets raised behind me. 2 folds and a call, and the SB 3 bets. It would appear the other T is out here with a flush draw and maybe the overpair that raised originally. I call and so do the other 2. Turn is the Ac, SB bets, I call and my left raises all-in. Everyone calls. River is the 9d and the SB bets again. I fold, and the pre-flop raiser raises. SB calls. SB had 77 for a flopped boat, all-in had Jd 5d for the flush and the PFR had AA for the turned full house. I was a distant fourth. Wow.

This is an example of the play I keep running into in the 3/6 games. I open raised UTG with ATo. I stopped playing AT UTG quite some time ago, and have started playing it again because of the tight nature of the paradise 5/10 games. It’s a mistake to play it in these 3/6 games and I will drop it. I get cold called on my left, and 3 bet 2 to my left. MP calls 3 cold, so does the button, SB and BB call as well. I reluctantly put $3 more in and 7 of us see the flop for 3 bets each. Flop is 5 5 2 rainbow. Checked to the 3 bettor who bets. MP calls, button folds and both blinds call. I fold. I don’t think chasing in these games at any time is worth it. Miss the flop get out, so I don’t regret the fold. One more caller behind me and 5 see the turn. Turn is Ac (2nd club). 3 bettor leads again and gets raised by the MP. I’m feeling very good about my fold now. The river is a 9h and MP bets and 3 bettor calls. MP has QcTc pulling the semi bluff on the turn and the 3 bettor wins with…..Ad 8d. Aaargh. That’s what you’re up against in 3/6. I had another similar hand with K9 in the BB and a flop of AKx. I checked and folded to a bet and a call, and I would have been good. But again, in these games I think I’m better waiting for top pair hands and not chasing middle or bottom pair in bad position.

Right idea, wrong time. I played Ad 4d after 1 limper from MP. 2 more LP calls and both blinds played too. Flop was 6h 5h 4s. It gets checked around. Turn is the 7d and it’s checked to me and I take a stab at the pot. The SB is the only one who calls me. Then the river brings the 8s and the SB checks and I bet again in case he can’t read the board. He calls, and turns over Js 9s. ZOINKS!! What did he call the turn for, and why didn’t he bet or raise the river?? Oh well.

Evening

This was an instant replay of last night. I sat down and started winning right away. I was up around $450 in the first 2 hours, but then I hit a real bad stretch and gave half of it back. Finished up $220. I’m making some big hands, twice winning set over set, but my big pairs aren’t holding up at all. But considering the way my week started, I’m very happy to post a $1,000 win. I’m up $375 at Paradise, and $800 at Party.

The 10 week summary is almost exactly where I was after week 6, up $9000. Now the question is how often can I expect a bad run like what I just went through? Can I go months before it happens again or will this happen fairly often. The job front shows nothing promising, I have a possible contract out of province, and there is still a full time opportunity possible, but nothing that looks at all certain right now. I need another good week to give me some cushion bankroll wise. I will continue to play Party 3/6 during the day, now I need to decide which site to play in the evenings.

A topic I’ve been meaning to mention for a while is raising from the blinds. I’m seeing a lot of what I consider foolish raising from the blinds lately. In multiway pots I’m seeing people raise Ax offsuit or KJo. Usually I would be happy to see people make bad plays, except when I’ve limped with a hand that wants to see the flop cheaply. I’m starting to add this to notes I’m keeping so I can be more careful of the limps. On this hand I thought it had happened again. I got 66 in MP and open limped. The button called and the BB raised. I thought this was another one of those bad raises and I decided to 3 bet. I do this all the time with AA and KK (Although at Party I don’t need to, you never win blinds only there), so I thought I’d represent that here. The button folded and the BB called. Flop came 3s Ts 8h and the BB bet out. I raised and he called. Turn was a 9d and he bet again. Uh oh, maybe he really had it this time. I just called. River is the beautiful 6s. He bets, I raise and he calls. My hand is good. I went to the hand history to see if he had AA or KK and surprise surprise, he had Ad Kd. I was good the whole time.

66 was my hand last night and I rivered a huge pot with it when I called a raiser and cold caller from the BB with it. Flop came 8c 4c 4d and I bet out. I was raised and cold called again and I just called. Turn was 8h. I checked, the raiser bet and was called again. I thought there was still a chance I was ahead. I thought the cold caller might be on clubs or overcards, and the raiser could easily have AK. I called once more. River brought my 6c. I checked and it was bet and raised behind me. I 3 bet, and they both called. The raiser did have AA and couldn’t let it go, and the cold caller had Kc Tc for the rivered straight.

bernie
07-06-2003, 12:29 PM
"Flop came 8c 4c 4d and I bet out. I was raised and cold called again and I just called. Turn was 8h. I checked, the raiser bet and was called again. I thought there was still a chance I was ahead. I thought the cold caller might be on clubs or overcards, and the raiser could easily have AK. I called once more. River brought my 6c. I checked and it was bet and raised behind me. I 3 bet, and they both called. The raiser did have AA and couldn’t let it go, and the cold caller had Kc Tc for the rivered straight."

how does KT make a str8 on a board of 8 4 4 8 6?

"Usually I would be happy to see people make bad plays, except when I’ve limped with a hand that wants to see the flop cheaply. I’m starting to add this to notes I’m keeping so I can be more careful of the limps."

dont limp with a hand that cant withstand a raise behind it. ive seen that somewhere before /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

b

dj_jazzyjeff
07-06-2003, 01:05 PM
I think that you're just on a losing session, albeit a LONG one /forums/images/icons/frown.gif I think that staying very disciplined, and reading your opponents a little better will help you sometimes.

You described losing w/ KK to AA. "You can't lay that down heads up," you said. You seem like you have good sense but I gotta ask, did you call him to the river, or get into a raising match, at what point did you "put him on" A's ??

lefty rosen
07-06-2003, 01:48 PM
I know you have been getting unbelievable beats by morons, who shouldn't be in the hand to begin with, but maybe you shouldn't play at 4am EST that's all you have online from our timezone. I find with my solid game the loose dumb players burn me more than the weak solid. I can't put a dumb player on any hand, so if I play a midnight Saturday or Friday game it's kill or be killed by junk. Maybe you should just play during the day the players are much more forward and predictable.

1800GAMBLER
07-06-2003, 01:49 PM
Just incase this does highlight a change in your game, 'with Ac 4c. I limp too'. You taught me that it's usually a raise or fold situation. If playing the hand solely for the flush or two pair i think that's a -EV too.

However i might have missed a point and people agree that it is playable. Someone tell me why if it is.

MRBAA
07-06-2003, 02:20 PM
congratulations on a come back week. I have no clue what your long term winning rate may be, but I do think you should expect to win that average through pretty extreme highs and lows, not a steady pace. You seem to handle it pretty well. Roy Cooke has written some good articles about losing less than a bad player when your cards go bad.

How are you finding the routine of playing online poker 6 days a week for 10 days? Are you still enjoying it more than a regular job, as much as you did when it was a second job? Do you find it's detracting from relationships with your family or enhancing them, as you're home more?

rhwbullhead
07-06-2003, 02:26 PM
These kind of streaks are going to happen, more frequently that one would like. That's why a lot of people can't handle the pro poker lifestyle. Having weathered this storm, though, you will be better able to handle it again in the future when it inevitably happens. You just have to remember that you must keep playing (and playing well) when the losing streaks happen.

I have to echo what someone said last week. It's a bad idea to be cashing money out every week. You need as much as possible in your bankroll there so you don't need to go all-in at anytime. Also, you might have been cashing in more that your real win rate can handle.

1800GAMBLER
07-06-2003, 02:29 PM
Will someone please explain that phrase, it's the 'withstand' part. Small pocket pairs don't like a raise but 'withstand'? As suited connectors. It's losing an edge to not play those because you fear a raise which probably has the frequency of 6:1.

Jimbo
07-06-2003, 02:34 PM
"The 10 week summary is almost exactly where I was after week 6, up $9000. Now the question is how often can I expect a bad run like what I just went through? Can I go months before it happens again or will this happen fairly often."

David the problem is that that wasn't a bad run. That was a hiccup. A bad run may last months not a few days at a time over three weeks. Hope you get that job soon and good luck at the tables.

Ulysses
07-06-2003, 03:34 PM
I have A7o in the SB and there is 1 limper to me and I call. The BB raises. Crap, here I go again. To be honest I should probably fold here ... and the river brings a 7…did I just turn the tables and suck out on someone else? I bet, he calls and my A7 beats his AQ.
Easy fold pre-flop. And checkraise the river.

I open raised with AQo. The button 3 bet me and we were heads up. Flop came T high rainbow. I checked and he bet. I hate AQ in this situation, AK I will see the showdown almost every time, but a normal player isn’t 3 betting with less than AQ. But I didn’t know this guy at all, and there are a lot of players at paradise who like to make plays from the button. I decided to go to the showdown
Did you consider betting/checkraising the flop or turn? I've been known to make a call-down stand like this, but I prefer putting on a little heat at some point if I think there's a decent chance I'm best. If I'm not sure, I'd usually just lay it down to the turn bet.

Kh 7h ... Flop is Kc 8h 4s. SB bets and I just call. Turn was 2h and I called his bet. River brought the Ad and I folded. He turned over QQ. Aaargh
How about raising the turn and checking behind on the river if you don't improve? You've raised pre-flop then just called his flop and turn bets. Why would he put you on a King? You described him as an overaggressive loose raiser. You have to call his river bet.

I've noticed your logic seems a bit inconsistent sometimes. It seems to me like you sometimes take small pocket pairs (and occassionally unimproved overcards) too far, yet are too quick to laydown in situations like the one above. Perhaps this is based on your notes on player tendencies, in which case it's understandable, but you should examine your play to make sure you're not varying your actions based on how you're running at the moment.

Ulysses
07-06-2003, 03:37 PM
"Flop came 8c 4c 4d
Turn was 8h.
River brought my 6c.
the cold caller had Kc Tc for the rivered straight."

how does KT make a str8 on a board of 8 4 4 8 6?

He obviously meant to say flush, Bernie.

davidross
07-06-2003, 07:33 PM
I believe the hand I was talking about was Raised by me, and 3 bet by the AA in the blind and capped by me. He bet the flop and I raised. He bet and 3 bet the turn when I just called, and I called his river bet. Because there were no overcards I wasn't going to fold, but when he 3 bet the turn I figured he had AA or a set. Pot was too big to fold though.

davidross
07-06-2003, 07:36 PM
I have found the game's easier to beat at those late hours becuase perhaps of the intoxication of some opponents, or maybe the general looseness of west coast players. Just like the games at party, I'll take the horrible beats if I can win more on my good hands.

I am thinking of changing my play time just for a more normal homelife while the kids are home for the summer.

davidross
07-06-2003, 07:40 PM
I would like to play A4s against several playrs for 1 bet only. If I am first in I will play it from 2 off the button or later for a raise. With a limper in front of me I'll play it earlier.

davidross
07-06-2003, 07:49 PM
I wish I could do this forever. Even during the losing streak I wanted to play everyday, but my anxiety over teh financial situation I'm in was considerable. I will still jump at the first job opportunity that presents itself, but I have not lost any desire to play.

It is much better for my homelife than when I was travelling 1 hour to and from work each day, or commuting out of town for days at a time. My being home has allowed my wife to spend more time at school without worrying about her babies home alone. I can take time to go to the pool ot to have lunch with the kids whenever I want so that's been good too. The only change has been if we travel. I have to consider whether I can find a place to play if we stay overnight somewhere or if I will just take time off. We have a 2 week vacation in AUgust where there is no phone in th ecottage so unless I get a cellular modem and ISP connection, I'll be off for 2 weeks. So I'm reluctant to take other time off too. We've been invited camping by some friends and I'm trying to decide if I should go.

davidross
07-06-2003, 07:51 PM
Unfortunately, that's all I have to live on right now unless I dip into long term savings so I have no choice. THat's one of the reasons I can't do this longer term I need to get back to work.

davidross
07-06-2003, 08:38 PM
Ulysses,

1st thing I think A7o is playable fronm the SB against 1 limper.

As for the rest of your post, I think you have zeroed in on the part of my game that has to improve if I want to continue to move up in stakes. In my limited exposure to 8/16 and 10/20 I was the least aggressive player at the table. I don't mind not being the most aggressive, because I think a lot of players overdo the aggression, but it is my biggest weakness right now. I am finding the Party 3/6 games to be the perfect place to increase the aggression and I'm working on doing it right now.

On the other hand, as I wrote the hands you quoted, I had th esame thoughts you wrote. I needed to raise somewhere to get a better feel for where I stood. However, sometimes raising either chases out a guy I wanted to stay, or costs me two more bets. Correctly assessing wht my opponent has is still the most important thing in these hands. Against good players where you just can't tell though, playing the way I played insures they will lose the least possible and win th emost from me, so I do need to rethink that.

bernie
07-07-2003, 12:26 AM
basically youre planning ahead. any time you limp in, consider a possible raise behind you.

as far as suited connectors, if you have enough limpers ahead of you, you should have no problem if it's raised behind you. in fact, sometimes, you will be the one raising.

if you can count on multiway action, pocket pairs can withstand a raise behind them after a couple limpers. worst case being you limp in EP, the guy on youre immediate left raises, and all fold to you.

but if you really dont like youre hand once it's been raised behind you, maybe you shouldnt have played that hand. a possible sign of playing too loose preflop.

b

bernie
07-07-2003, 12:28 AM
i knew it was going to be a FH hand so i ignored the suits. thanks for taking the vaccuum to my brain and clearing that up for me. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

im awake now

b

nicky g
07-07-2003, 11:24 AM
I don't really play much limit but:

"1st thing I think A7o is playable fronm the SB against 1 limper. "

Maybe. But when the BB raises you are in trouble. I think folding there and then would be fine, but if you feel you have to call because of 5-1 pot odds despite the domination risk, you should realise that you are not really looking to hit an ace; if it's good against his big pocket pair you won't be able to get much out of him (and won't be able to play strongly for fear of your kicker); and if it's bad it's very bad. And if you do hit it, just calling along does not seem like a great play to me. Either check-fold, or bet and fold to a raise, or call a raise and fold to a turn bet if you don't improve. Calling along with top pair crap kicker is for the players who pay your bills IMO.

Your posts are great, keep it up and good luck.

markc212
07-07-2003, 02:16 PM
Hey David,

Keep your head up. Hopefully, your bad run will do an abrupt about-face.

A couple of weeks ago, a number of posters had strongly suggested that you switch to Party for the looser, poorer players. If you recall, I had suggested that you carefully consider the impact of the different profiles of the sites before you make the switch. Specifically, given the relatively loose-passive nature of the play on Party, I suggested that 1) you should alter your play a small degree to be more selective in terms of how you play small pairs from early position and marginal hands like KTo or QTo, and 2) you will experience significantly higher swings in your bankroll. Additionally, I emphasized that raises will have less "impact" and effectiveness on stealing blinds and winning flops outright.

Besides the psychological tilt factor, what changes have you consciously made in your play from site to site?

rtrombone
07-07-2003, 08:31 PM
Look at it this way, David: if someone had told you you would be up $9,000 after 10 weeks of playing low-limit online, would you have taken it?

As someone who has played poker for rent before, your posts are inspiring. Keep striving to improve your game and you will be fine. The badness can stretch for weeks, unfortunately. All you can do is not go on tilt and set a maximum you are willing to lose in a session. You will get the best of your fishy opponents in the end.

davidross
07-07-2003, 08:36 PM
Mark,

I actually haven't had to make many adjustments. Because my bankroll was limited I was very careful at first. If you have followed all the posts you probably know that I am a bit looser than most 2+2'ers. That game worked well at Paradise 2/4 and 3/6, but wasn't as effective at 5/10 when the games tightened up. I am reverting to that game a little more at Party, meaning I'm willing to limp in first with samll pairs, suited connectors and weak suited aces.

I'm playing 3 3/6 tables at once usually though and I'm being pretty tight again because I don't need to be playing all 3 tables at once.

The other thing I am doing is playing very straightforward. No slowplaying sets or made hands. I just bet out. I will usually get several callers on the flop.

Ulysses
07-08-2003, 02:08 AM
1st thing I think A7o is playable fronm the SB against 1 limper.

I agree. And against certain limpers, I'll raise here to get heads-up w/ my Ace-high. But I was saying "easy muck pre-flop" meaning easy muck once the BB raises. You're often dominated in this spot. You tried to see the flop cheap, but that didn't happen. Muck it. And when you do get into these situations (we all do), you need to be sure and maximize your win - in this case by checkraising the river. You're somewhat "protected" from losing a river bet because most anyone who would call a bet at the end here is going to bet given the action so far. And most of the time they'll probably call the checkraise.

but it is my biggest weakness right now ... I am finding the Party 3/6 games to be the perfect place to increase the aggression and I'm working on doing it right now.

You've identified a weakness and found a place to work on it. What better way to improve? I've never played online, but posts seem to say the limits play like one or two levels higher B&M, so if 3-6 plays like 6-12 (or even 10-20) B&M, it's definitely the right place to start playing a little more aggressively. And just as importantly, be aware that others are doing the same thing.

I needed to raise somewhere to get a better feel for where I stood.
Not just that, raising will of course also give you another way to take down the pot, by winning it right there. Now, against hyper-aggressive opponents, I often prefer calling down a lot, because I can always count on them to bet and they 3-bet a little too easily. But against the average player, they'll often drop to a turn raise and often won't follow through w/ another bluff on the river. So, against those players, you never make two bets, thus it's better to just take down the pot on the turn rather than give them a cheap look at the river.

Against good players where you just can't tell though, playing the way I played insures they will lose the least possible and win th emost from me, so I do need to rethink that.
You, like many 2+2ers, are much better than your average opponents. So, if in addition to that, you're thinking about and working on things like this and not tilting or getting too loose pre-flop, you can't help but win in the long-term. But as others have said, you'll always see some rough patches. Keep playing well - I hope this bad streak turns very soon.

samz
07-08-2003, 09:11 AM
David,

I have a similar problem -
I am a multiple BB per hour winner at 3/6 -
Hold my own at 5/10 and run into problems at higher limits.

At 3/6 - you get so many people chasing that you get paid of for your good hands(it may be boring but it sure works) but at 5/10 and above I find the opponents much more aggressive.

Let us know how you learn to deal with this. My take is that this is the biggest difficulty in moving up in limits.
I also think that you need better hand reading skills - this goes along with understanding why your opponents are being aggressive - playing multiple tables is more of an issue at higher limits - At 3/6 - you can just let the odds work in your favor with lots of people chasing but when pots are consistently heads up - it becomes more difficult to do this - should you call/raise with middle pair - something I would fold without a thought at 3/6.

Do you go by DavidRoss at party?
Keep us posted and good luck.

Sam

markc212
07-09-2003, 10:27 AM
David,

I think your adjustments are correct. However, I think it's even more important to take into consideration the pot odds and implied odds when playing on Party. There's a lot more room to maneuver and win the pot outright on Paradise. Additionally, other players make the decision a lot easier by raising you out of the hand.

At Party, you can end up paying dearly if you don't make best hand. I definitely try to play more straightforward (as you are doing) on Party, and also run some quick odds calculations before making a move.

See you online!

lefty rosen
07-10-2003, 03:23 PM
One simple rule party King six suited is gold and at paradise it's a trap.......... Okay it's a little more complicated then that but that will come out in the book....

Punker
07-13-2003, 06:41 AM
1) 4 limpers to me on the button with Ac 4c. I limp too.

There is nothing wrong at all with raising here.

2)I open raise with Kc Ks in MP. I get 2 callers plus the BB. Flop comes Ad 9s 7s…of course. I contemplated check/folding the way things have been going, but I bet. Only one caller. Turn is Ts. I now have some extra outs…maybe. So I check, and he bets.

Out of position I keep betting here.

3) I have A7o in the SB and there is 1 limper to me and I call.

I raise here.

In almost all these hands, I sense a bit of trepidation and weakness. Seems like the bad run has you a bit low on confidence and playing to protect your BR.

Not much can be done if you feel restricted by your BR and confidence other than to move down in limits temporarily and build both back up. I'd advise you consider doing so.