What do you limp? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

11-29-2005, 04:21 PM

There's been a bit of discussion recently about the benefits of limping small and mid pocket pairs with some people (whose advice I try to listen to) saying that it's a bad idea to limp these. Others have said that it's OK to limp them from late position after there are already limpers in the pot. These discussions have piqued my interest because I often wonder whether it is ever right to limp.

I'm wondering what people are open limping with. From early position? From middle position? From late position? Assume a full (or nearly full) table in early levels. If the chip structure makes a difference, I'm more interested in hearing about what people are doing at PS where everyone starts with 1500 in chips.

So, what do you limp with?

11-29-2005, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So, what do you limp with?

[/ QUOTE ]

EP I'm always in raise/fold mode, I don't have any limping hands on a full table

MP I limp in with mid pp if there are already limpers, if not I raise

LP I'll limp in with mids and small if already limpers, if not then raise both

I don't play suited connectors all that often unless my implied odds are really big (like family pots or lots of limpers)

pineapple888

11-29-2005, 04:34 PM

Uhh... it kind of depends. That's a very general question.

Regarding pairs, any small/medium pair if limp < 1/20 my effective stack size and I think it's reasonably likely nobody will raise behind me.

pooh74

11-29-2005, 04:36 PM

Don't have time to go super in-depth, but at stars (turbos) because of the presence of usually 2-3 super lags at every table to start, I try to do some "low risk-high reward" type plays early. As usual it depends, but lets just say that PPs are the quickest and easiest way to stack one of these fellas and the reverse imlplied odds are obviously minute.

Calling a raise with them at Ls I-II can be good.

L3 I might open fold 66 UTG.

11-29-2005, 04:44 PM

EP - limp with 4's - 8's, AJo, KQo, QJs, JTs, (ATs, A9s if above avg chip stack)
MP - KJo, A8s, A7s (middle SC's if above avg chip stack)
LP - KTs, QTs, (small SC's if above avg chip stack)

I'm sure i've missed a few and by no means do I use this exclusively, have folded these hands and raised with these hands. so much is read dependent, stack dependent, other players stack size dependent, # of players left and your table image up to this point.

11-29-2005, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
EP - limp with 4's - 8's, AJo, KQo, QJs, JTs, (ATs, A9s if above avg chip stack)
MP - KJo, A8s, A7s (middle SC's if above avg chip stack)
LP - KTs, QTs, (small SC's if above avg chip stack)

I'm sure i've missed a few and by no means do I use this exclusively, have folded these hands and raised with these hands. so much is read dependent, stack dependent, other players stack size dependent, # of players left and your table image up to this point.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks for the list. I realize that it depends upon a lot, which is why I stipulated early levels and nearly full table (to reduce availability of reads, significant stack differences and the like). I'm just looking for base lines from which people work. (And, to spark discussion about those.)

11-29-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, what do you limp with?

[/ QUOTE ]

EP I'm always in raise/fold mode, I don't have any limping hands on a full table

MP I limp in with mid pp if there are already limpers, if not I raise

LP I'll limp in with mids and small if already limpers, if not then raise both

I don't play suited connectors all that often unless my implied odds are really big (like family pots or lots of limpers)

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you don't ever limp if there aren't already limpers in the pot?

ZeroPointMachine

11-29-2005, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, what do you limp with?

[/ QUOTE ]

EP I'm always in raise/fold mode, I don't have any limping hands on a full table

MP I limp in with mid pp if there are already limpers, if not I raise

LP I'll limp in with mids and small if already limpers, if not then raise both

I don't play suited connectors all that often unless my implied odds are really big (like family pots or lots of limpers)

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you don't ever limp if there aren't already limpers in the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

In STTs I almost never open limp into a pot. The only exception would be in the first hand or two in EP with marginal cards. Then I might limp just to see how the table reacts. I just feel that the FE and deception value gained are worth the extra chips.

handsome

11-29-2005, 07:04 PM

tigerite

11-29-2005, 09:09 PM

Agreed it's far, far too loose

pooh74

11-29-2005, 09:28 PM

I was going to elaborate some more but decided not to and I'll just say the obvious: This question is so "feel" dependent that it cannot be answered. Now before you jump all over me for saying "feel" Ill explain what I mean. I mean that basically, feel consists of all of those variables and sub-variables that are too numerous to list, but after having played 5000+ of these things, you sort of don't have to spell them out when in game time. (I realize in L1 where starting stacks are still intact, these variables become somewhat eliminated but there are still things like #of limpers, previously raised pots PF, agression frequency in players left to act PF and prepost/flop etc...)

I have no problems playing by a strict set of opening hand criteria either, but, I think with experience its better without such a thing.

11-29-2005, 10:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problems playing by a strict set of opening hand criteria either, but, I think with experience its better without such a thing.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not looking for a formulaic approach, rather I'm trying to figure out what types of hands people do limp. Then look at the benefits and drawbacks of limping those hands and figure out for myself whether it is worth limping these hands. Others may look at the same information and draw a different conclusion. To get at the hand types, I had hoped to talk in generalities rather than some thing like: with exactly one limper, >10.2% of the chips, three players yet to act who have limped previously, a cautious player in the BB, etc.

zipppy

11-29-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, what do you limp with?

[/ QUOTE ]

EP I'm always in raise/fold mode, I don't have any limping hands on a full table

[/ QUOTE ]

so from UTG, in the first hand, are you raising or folding JJ? 1010? 99? I'm curious because the set value of these hands is fantastic, but rarely will you play out one of these hands early in an STT where they will take down a pot unimproved.

I like to limp with mid-pairs up to JJ in EP early in the game. Some of this also has to do with managing pot size, which I'm not sure if anyone has addressed. Sometimes good hands are fine to limp with, instead of raising, from early-mid position since a large raise later won't mean as much if a player with no perception of pot odds "feels" like they've committed a lot of chips to the pot already (calling a preflop raise, etc).

just some thoughts...

>>>ZIPPPY

Melchiades

11-30-2005, 01:00 AM

Thats a whole lot of hands I fold without even considering playing. Limping JTs from EP seems partuculary EV-.

11-30-2005, 01:33 AM

I've found that limping with middle pairs makes it easy to paid off if you do hit the set on the flop because it is hard for the other person to put you on pocket pair. Also, if you miss the flop, it is easy to get away from the hand.

tripdad

11-30-2005, 01:38 AM

levels I and II (and under ideal conditions...ie, not a whole lot of craziness):

EP limp: 88-TT, AJs, KQs...and sometimes just limp w/AQo.
MPlimp: 55-77, KQo, ATs, KJs.
LP limp: any pair, AJo, QJs, T9s, JTs

for both MP and LP limps, there must be other limpers for me to play. some of these i also fold of course if there aren't enough limpers, or there is a fool behind me, and i muck most of them if it gets raised, depending of course on the size of raise and how many others called it.

for levels III and up, i generally do not limp except to mix it up sometimes.

tripdad

tripdad

11-30-2005, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
EP - limp with 4's - 8's, AJo, KQo, QJs, JTs, (ATs, A9s if above avg chip stack)
MP - KJo, A8s, A7s (middle SC's if above avg chip stack)
LP - KTs, QTs, (small SC's if above avg chip stack)

I'm sure i've missed a few and by no means do I use this exclusively, have folded these hands and raised with these hands. so much is read dependent, stack dependent, other players stack size dependent, # of players left and your table image up to this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to remember that hold'em is a battle for the blinds. when the blinds are so small, you shouldn't limp with troublesome hands such as AJo and KQo in early position, and KJo in MP, or any of the suited rag aces, just to name some (there are a lot of trouble hands on your list). the blinds just aren't big enough to risk your stack on.

tripdad

tigerite

11-30-2005, 06:04 AM

This is a better list, I think though you'd be better off mucking AJs and KQs from up front. They're not too bad to play, though.

I'd replace ATs with AJs in MP, bin KQs in EP, and probably also remove KJs. Actually KJ is just a very hard hand to play for profit, even from LP

Jbrochu

11-30-2005, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
so from UTG, in the first hand, are you raising or folding JJ? 1010? 99? I'm curious because the set value of these hands is fantastic, but rarely will you play out one of these hands early in an STT where they will take down a pot unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this question was addressed to Marwan, but I thought I would offer my 2-cents as well since I don't often open limp early in STTs. It's important to first note that I play at Stars with the deeper starting stacks and might well play differently at Party.

From UTG in the early levels I generally open raise with any pocket pair that I would call a raise with had I open limped instead. In general, this means 77 and up. I'll usually fold 66 and lower unless the table has shown a willingness to let a bunch of limpers see a cheap flop.

Once in a great while, if it's too early for the table to have a read on me, I'll open limp AA from UTG.

pooh74

11-30-2005, 11:47 AM

12-01-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
From UTG in the early levels I generally open raise with any pocket pair that I would call a raise with had I open limped instead. In general, this means 77 and up. I'll usually fold 66 and lower unless the table has shown a willingness to let a bunch of limpers see a cheap flop.

Once in a great while, if it's too early for the table to have a read on me, I'll open limp AA from UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to open limp AA, don't you also need to open limp other holding? Otherwise, they'll always know you have AA when you open limp.

I understand that you clarified that you might do this only when thetable has no reads. But, I do find it curious that no one else has mentioned open limping AA; I see it a lot.

tripdad

12-01-2005, 11:30 PM

12-01-2005, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a better list, I think though you'd be better off mucking AJs and KQs from up front. They're not too bad to play, though.

I'd replace ATs with AJs in MP, bin KQs in EP, and probably also remove KJs. Actually KJ is just a very hard hand to play for profit, even from LP

[/ QUOTE ]
Do I have this right? A list like this is about right for you for an opening limp:

EP 88, 99, TT, AQo
MP 55, 66, 77, KQo, AJs
LP any pair, AJo, QJs, JTs, T9s

Do you raise with 88, 99 and TT from MP? With pairs in LP, do you limp with 22, 33 and 44 or do you really expand the range to include all pairs? If it gets to LP and no one has entered the pot, isn't it better to raise or fold with the small pocket pairs?

Do you limp any stronger hands to protect your weaker limping hands?

gisb0rne

12-02-2005, 01:14 AM

WOW...people are so loose.

Limp: 88-JJ (raise in LP if first in)
Raise: QQ-AA, AK

Fold everything else. PStars turbos.

wiggs73

12-02-2005, 01:17 AM

From EP, I don't limp anything. In the first 2 levels, I'm raising 99+, AK, AQs and folding everything else.

Late, I will limp any PP or call a min-raise with them. I'll call a larger raise if my stack is large enough to allow me to do so.

As the blinds get bigger and the table has less players at it, I loosen up those standards a bit, but I'm still not limping. Unless I have a big stack, I'm not limping anything when blinds are 25/50 and once blinds hit 50/100, I don't limp with anything regardless of how many chips I have.

tigerite

12-02-2005, 06:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Do I have this right? A list like this is about right for you for an opening limp:

EP 88, 99, TT, AQo
MP 55, 66, 77, KQo, AJs
LP any pair, AJo, QJs, JTs, T9s

[/ QUOTE ]

LP "any pair" for me depends on limpers, if there are none, I will raise them. Save for maybe 22, and on odd occasion 33, which I might limp or even fold, depends on the table.

I raise AQo EP, and sometimes TT as well. I would not open limp KQo from MP, I would fold it, and raise KQs. Behind limpers again depends on those to act after me. AJs is usually a raise from MP unopened, again.

LP, T9s I want at least 2 limpers and probably 3. JTs I want at least two as well I think, but sometimes will play it with 1. QJs again I usually want a limper to play. I wouldn't raise with these hands first in, not at level 1 anyway, except maybe very rarely QJs. AJo I'm raising LP unopened, of course.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you raise with 88, 99 and TT from MP? With pairs in LP, do you limp with 22, 33 and 44 or do you really expand the range to include all pairs? If it gets to LP and no one has entered the pot, isn't it better to raise or fold with the small pocket pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above, yes I am usually raising all of these.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you limp any stronger hands to protect your weaker limping hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not very often at all.

tigerite

12-02-2005, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Late, I will limp any PP or call a min-raise with them. I'll call a larger raise if my stack is large enough to allow me to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also depends on your opponent's stack, you know. But I used to do this, and I think it's a leak without the right odds and number of people in the pot, because you just don't stack people every time.

12-02-2005, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
WOW...people are so loose.

Limp: 88-JJ (raise in LP if first in)
Raise: QQ-AA, AK

Fold everything else. PStars turbos.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I recall correctly, you're 8-tabling the PS $27 turbos. (And, doing pretty well if the results from when I'm at your table are any indication.) Do you think your limping ranges are best in general, or best for someone who is 8-tabling and may not be able to pay as much attention as needed to individual games? And, this is mostly for EP play, right? You're not suggesting that you won't raise with AQ from late position if no one else has entered the pot, are you?

gisb0rne

12-02-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I recall correctly, you're 8-tabling the PS $27 turbos. (And, doing pretty well if the results from when I'm at your table are any indication.) Do you think your limping ranges are best in general, or best for someone who is 8-tabling and may not be able to pay as much attention as needed to individual games? And, this is mostly for EP play, right? You're not suggesting that you won't raise with AQ from late position if no one else has entered the pot, are you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold AQ in all positions (even first in on the button) in the first 2 levels. I fold AK to most raises in the first 2 levels. Heck sometimes I fold AKo if there are a lot of limpers. In later positions I call PP's down to 22 depending on how many limpers there are. The more limpers the lower the PP I'll call with. Basically my strategy in the first 2 levels is play for set value, overpair, or top pair top kicker.

Once level 3 comes around I loosen up a tiny bit, but not by limping. I raise AQ first in on the button now (woohoo!) and sometimes hands like AJ. I'll reraise more often with AK. I start raising my higher PP's, depending on how many players are left.

Once the blinds get to lvl 4 and higher, I never (ever) limp but I loosen up a ton as you probably know.

Now that's a lot tighter than optimal but I'm not confident in my post-flop play and I don't think the EV is very high from playing marginal hands the first couple levels.