CobraGoat
11-29-2005, 04:02 PM
This is probably old hat to a lot of the good players on here. I however have been playing for a little more than a year and realize everyday how little i know. I have been having a really hard time as of late trying to understand the concept of controlling the pot etc. this post doesnt sum it all up but it got me thinking differently and i have already noticed (although probably too small a sample size ~1200 hands today) a vast difference in how i feel in a lot of hands and my production is up. anyways, here it is...
"Extracting the most chips in all chip-getting situations by achieving the most favorable EV with your bet sizes, instead of primarily worrying about pricing people out of their draws, etc. Getting away when you are behind, getting the most when you are ahead. Controlling the pot size through correct betting patterns will allow you to do better at both. It is easier to get away from a pot when you have less invested, it is easier for villain to call certain less -threatening- bets which end up drawing the villain in ("vacuum betting, so common in cash games, takes a back seat in tournaments it seems") and making it much harder for him to get away than what his mind processed. Of course we don't wan't to give villain proper pot odds to outdraw on us, this is not what I am saying, but often there are optimal bet sizes for situations which we can control, and we can't worry about the situations we DO NOT control. Extracting chips from villain when he is way behind but doesn't know it is key. You can't get his chips if he doesn't think he can beat you, so let him push YOU all-in. Let him think he is ahead. You can turn your Bible (HOH) Vol. 2 to page 46 and Harry tells you all about "Massaging the Pot". Villain ends up getting sucked into the vacuum of putting more money into a pot he has already invested into, often starting off calling an innocent looking bet, or even taking your bet as a sign of weakness, perhaps raising it, building the pot for you, making it harder for him to get away. Often enough they will throw their chips in voluntarily, an effect you would have not achieved with different betting patterns. Another key thing is not building big pots out of position. Position and pot management go hand in hand, and you have to try to maximize the effectiveness of both.
One last thing, and perhaps the most important, is controlling pot odds for YOURSELF. Turn your bible to p. 223
and notice how Hero changing his preflop bet amount completely affect HIS future pot odds and play options. In the problem, Hero is in first position and has an M of 10 with 1500 chips, , UTG +2 is big stack with M of 15, rest have similar chips (ranging from 1200-1500) to hero except SB and BB, which have M's of 3-4 respectively. Hero is dealt 8,8, and contemplates his options. A raise to 400 gives a good chance to isolate, but you will have good odds to call an all in from a 1200 stack (getting 2.2 - 1 if one pusher). Raise to 300 gives you 1.8 to 1 against same stacked pusher, and 1.6 - 1 against big stacks.
Raising 250 you would have 1.7 - 1 from the 1200 stack, and could only call the looser players.
Of course the other options are calling and folding.
Its a hard choice with a very hard holding, but Harrington himself would usually go with the 400 route just to make his decisions down the road easier. If he now gets re-raised all in, hes getting the most favorable pot odds he could have from these options. If he steals or goes against a shorty, even better. Also, picking bet sizes that give hand ranges you CAN control improper odds while not worrying about hand ranges you cannot control during a certain situation is key. Every bet and it's size should have a reason. Of course no player will be able to make the perfect decision about every little detail EVERY time, but it is our goal to be as close to perfect as possible. Also there are articles about limping AK out of position and other such topics that boil down to the idea of not building pots out of position and topics that are often argued about, etc, but general consensus is that people do not focus enough on maximizing gain and minimizing loss (which are interwoven with position and bet sizes) which are the true key components of poker. I hope that answers something, if anything ><"
"Extracting the most chips in all chip-getting situations by achieving the most favorable EV with your bet sizes, instead of primarily worrying about pricing people out of their draws, etc. Getting away when you are behind, getting the most when you are ahead. Controlling the pot size through correct betting patterns will allow you to do better at both. It is easier to get away from a pot when you have less invested, it is easier for villain to call certain less -threatening- bets which end up drawing the villain in ("vacuum betting, so common in cash games, takes a back seat in tournaments it seems") and making it much harder for him to get away than what his mind processed. Of course we don't wan't to give villain proper pot odds to outdraw on us, this is not what I am saying, but often there are optimal bet sizes for situations which we can control, and we can't worry about the situations we DO NOT control. Extracting chips from villain when he is way behind but doesn't know it is key. You can't get his chips if he doesn't think he can beat you, so let him push YOU all-in. Let him think he is ahead. You can turn your Bible (HOH) Vol. 2 to page 46 and Harry tells you all about "Massaging the Pot". Villain ends up getting sucked into the vacuum of putting more money into a pot he has already invested into, often starting off calling an innocent looking bet, or even taking your bet as a sign of weakness, perhaps raising it, building the pot for you, making it harder for him to get away. Often enough they will throw their chips in voluntarily, an effect you would have not achieved with different betting patterns. Another key thing is not building big pots out of position. Position and pot management go hand in hand, and you have to try to maximize the effectiveness of both.
One last thing, and perhaps the most important, is controlling pot odds for YOURSELF. Turn your bible to p. 223
and notice how Hero changing his preflop bet amount completely affect HIS future pot odds and play options. In the problem, Hero is in first position and has an M of 10 with 1500 chips, , UTG +2 is big stack with M of 15, rest have similar chips (ranging from 1200-1500) to hero except SB and BB, which have M's of 3-4 respectively. Hero is dealt 8,8, and contemplates his options. A raise to 400 gives a good chance to isolate, but you will have good odds to call an all in from a 1200 stack (getting 2.2 - 1 if one pusher). Raise to 300 gives you 1.8 to 1 against same stacked pusher, and 1.6 - 1 against big stacks.
Raising 250 you would have 1.7 - 1 from the 1200 stack, and could only call the looser players.
Of course the other options are calling and folding.
Its a hard choice with a very hard holding, but Harrington himself would usually go with the 400 route just to make his decisions down the road easier. If he now gets re-raised all in, hes getting the most favorable pot odds he could have from these options. If he steals or goes against a shorty, even better. Also, picking bet sizes that give hand ranges you CAN control improper odds while not worrying about hand ranges you cannot control during a certain situation is key. Every bet and it's size should have a reason. Of course no player will be able to make the perfect decision about every little detail EVERY time, but it is our goal to be as close to perfect as possible. Also there are articles about limping AK out of position and other such topics that boil down to the idea of not building pots out of position and topics that are often argued about, etc, but general consensus is that people do not focus enough on maximizing gain and minimizing loss (which are interwoven with position and bet sizes) which are the true key components of poker. I hope that answers something, if anything ><"