A x Suited and Suited Connectors

[Admania]

Hi there, I play a lot of low fixed limit holdem on the net and overall fair pretty well. I was wondering how people generally play these hands in ring games. I like to raise with big pairs and ak,aq etc but I genrally just call or bet with a x suited and suited connectors. Do you raise, call, fold in general with these hands?
Cheers
Adam

[Louie Landale]

AXs and XYx are hands with good implied odds: if they hit the flop against several players they make money later. These implied odds make up for the money you lose PF playing them.

There are some situations to raise with them, but not to narrow the field and not for value.

They also don't do well in tight games since the implied odds are gone. Routinely play them in loose-passive games, otherwise looks for reasons to fold.

- Louie

[cardjunky]

I agree with louie. But when you play Ax suited and you hit an ace on the flop without hitting your flush draw, be prepared to let it go you if catch some heat. It sucks drawing to 3 outs.

[DiamondDave]

In a nice loose-passive game, many of your opponents are playing way too many hands, especially suited hands. Some of them will call a raise with any two suited cards.

If people holding "trash" like J2s are going to smash the flush you make with your "playable" 98s, the best response is to fold medium suited connectors and call liberally with suited aces.

In fact, if everyone else in the game is going to see the flop and play badly on later streets, I'd much rather call a preflop raise with A6s (although I don't automatically do so) than limp in with 76s (although I might complete the button charge if the lineup is right).

I pretty much disregard suited connectors' potential to make a straight - with the exception of JTs. This is only because you get an incredible amount of action from big pairs and such if you make broadway using both the J and the T.

As for raising versus calling with suited hands in a loose game, I very seldom raise before the flop unless I have a draw to at least top pair/reasonable kicker (ace-broadway suited or face-face suited) to go along with my flush draw.

[Michael Davis]

In games where people are coming with hands like J2s, they are often coming with a lot of unsuited trash, too. These games are ideal for playing 98s. Flush over flush just doesn't happen that often. And sometimes, you will even win the confrontation. It is difficult to imagine these players folding 76s, 75s, 54s, and the like.

In what game would you play 98s if you're not playing it against people who play J2?

Also, I don't know how much it costs to complete the button charge, but if it is a small amount (as I expect in the small stakes forum), you should probably be completing it every time with 76o. Playing 76s isn't even close.

-Mike

[Ed Miller]

I pretty much disregard suited connectors' potential to make a straight

This should tell you right off that you are on the wrong track.

[Your Mom]

I pretty much disregard suited connectors' potential to make a straight

This should tell you right off that you are on the wrong track.


Good, I thought I was on crack for a second.

[Clarkmeister]

The money you win from flopping an ace will exceed the money you win from making straights. A6s is a much better hand than 78s in an unraised pot.

[bernie]

that's not the same as saying youd disregard the str8 potential of suited connectors. that's one thing that makes the suited connectors playable in loose(passive) games described.

b

[DiamondDave]

Michael Davis claims flush-over-flush is uncommon. Consider a 10-handed game that's so loose-passive that every suited ace sees the flop. I hold K/forums/images/icons/diamond.gifQ/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . There are 50 unseen cards, 18 of which will be dealt out to other players. 18/50 of the time the ace of my suit will be dealt out.

If the A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif is dealt out, what is the probability that the player holding it has another diamond? Now there are 49 unseen cards, 10 of which are diamonds. So the player with the A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif will be holding some other diamond 10/49 of the time.

That means that (18*10)/(50*49) = ... = .07347 of the time my king-high flush will be no good, even if I make my hand using both of my hole cards.

Now suppose the game is so loose that every suited face card is being played. (A good problem to have, no doubt, but one to which we must adapt.) Even a ten-high flush will lose about 1/3 of the time to a higher flush made using two hole cards.

Of course, anyone holding a high singleton card of your suit is drawing to beat you if you flop a small flush (you lose almost 1/3 of the time) or complete one on the turn (you lose almost 1/5 of the time).

In what game would you play 98s if you're not playing it against people who play J2?

I might play (not limp, but raise with) 98s once in a while (not every time I get a hand like that) against opponents who are trying to put me on a hand, are going to remember the time I played 76s like it was AKo, and aren't drawing to random flushes all the time. This isn't the case at the 3/6 table, not by a longshot.

And when I look down and see 98s, I don't think to myself, "Gosh this hand has a lot of potential - I'm drawing to a straight AND a flush! I'm wasting my time here if I don't play this hand because I'm getting x-to-y odds. Besides, it's a Group 4 hand and I get to play those hands in this game because the other players play poorly." Instead I look down, see that I have small cards, fold, watch the action, try to pick up tells and tendencies, try to determine my opponents starting and raising standards, and wait for a hand I want to play.

[anatta]

You're right of course. Without the straight draw, you might a well play J3s. In fact, you should prefer to flop a straight draw with low connectors then a flush draw.

[Mike]

I settled this question for myself a few years ago with a number of TTH runs - not all players seeing the river but actual sim play.

Playing anything suited made a little less than $ .50 a hand at $4-8. The more junk I cut off the bottom end as not playable the more money I made. Stick with T+ suited and profit skyrockets. There used to be an RGP poster who thin bet hands down to a few cents a hand. He no longer posts as far as I know.

There must be a lesson in that somewhere.....