Ever wonder why 2+2 is going downhill?

[dogmeat]

Quote:
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it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

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EVAN

I think there is a big difference.


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Oh Mr. Moderator, since I see little difference in the two, rather than stating your opinion - how about adding some insight as to which is the clear choice and why - please enlighten me.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EVAN
1) Relax
2) I think saying that folding and cold capping are about the same needs a lot more explanation than saying that they aren't.

end quote

The upper quote is my answer in another thread. The reply is from our moderator Evan. Am I out of line to expect an actual explanation instead of a sarcastic, condescending reply - twice?

I expect the sarcasm from many posters at 2+2 (and I'm obviously guilty of it myself), but is it too much to ask that the moderators not join in threads with worthless, one line crap; and when asked for an explanation, that they don't again reply with crap?

2+2 is the best poker forum on the web, but the response to new posts is 80% drivel, and it doesn't help when those worthless responses come from moderators.

FWIW, in the future I'll try not to add any sarcastic replys - and will try to give actual fact, or at least my genuine opinion from practical experience to posts /images/graemlins/blush.gif I hope the moderators will consider doing the same.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[UATrewqaz]

I read a thread earlier I thought someone made a good comment on...

Too often threads becoming pissing contests where everyone tries to sound like an expert and bash everyone else.

I think we have alot of "gamers" (like online type, think StarCraft, Counterstrike, etc.) and this mentality of "l33tism" is prevelant in that community.

[stinkypete]

you state an opinion with no explanation. evan disagrees, expecting an explanation. you turn it around, expecting a couterargument from evan, though you've never argued your position in the first place.

yes, i see a problem with this thread.

[Entity]

I agree with Pete. Do I need to explain more, or be less sarcastic, because my name is in green?

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]

you state an opinion with no explanation. evan disagrees, expecting an explanation. you turn it around, expecting a couterargument from evan, though you've never argued your position in the first place.

yes, i see a problem with this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you are right. I guess I should have said "I don't see a significant difference in monetary return between folding and capping. If I fold, I lose zero. If I cap, I expect a very small return in the longrun, so I don't see much difference between the two.

I actually thought my response was self-evident. Perhaps it was not.

[TStoneMBD]

i typed out a long post concerning this then deleted it. then i typed out another long post about something else and deleted that too. i didnt like anything i had to say so i wont say it. evan probably relates.

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Pete. Do I need to explain more, or be less sarcastic, because my name is in green?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both.

I guess I would just like to be able to read a response (especially when it is from a moderator) that has some substance and redeeming value to it. Instead, a vast majority of responses state only an opinion that is not backed up with any facts or explanation (are are therefore worthless in most cases). Of course, this is just my opinion. Perhaps many people at 2+2 like reading just opinions.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i typed out a long post concerning this then deleted it. then i typed out another long post about something else and deleted that too. i didnt like anything i had to say so i wont say it. evan probably relates.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I just delete my response then?

[TStoneMBD]

i know of quite a few posters that always post well developed responses that to me, are always self-evident. i often dont read their replies or i skim them to get to the good stuff. i realize however that to many other people their thoughts might not be self-evident, so they are doing them a service. lately when im replying to a thread i dont post self-evident reasoning when i know the op knows my thoughts. if i have something to say that i think someone might not take into account i say it. your reasoning for why the cap or fold doesnt matter is indeed self-evident, but i also think its wrong. evan's arguement is also likely self-evident. i personally appreciate it when posters reply to my threads with correct answers, whether they elaborate on them or not. twoplustwo isnt going downhill because of oneliners. people (usually) post oneliners because their thoughts are self-evident and dont do anybody a service.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Pete. Do I need to explain more, or be less sarcastic, because my name is in green?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both.

I guess I would just like to be able to read a response (especially when it is from a moderator) that has some substance and redeeming value to it. Instead, a vast majority of responses state only an opinion that is not backed up with any facts or explanation (are are therefore worthless in most cases). Of course, this is just my opinion. Perhaps many people at 2+2 like reading just opinions.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had typed out why you thought capping and folding were the same in terms of EV, then I could figure out what's specifically wrong with what you're saying. With a oneliner post that is clearly wrong, though, I can't say much; it's akin to just posting the solution to a story problem in math rather than posting how you arrived at that solution. I attempted later in this thread to explain it to you, but you'll have to let me know if that helps or not.

Edit: I just found the source for your original disagreement, and from my experience in that situation, capping is a fair amount higher in terms of EV than folding (obviously 0EV since it's a preflop decision). I deleted my original response since it didn't help with the subject matter.

If you want a great analysis, you can read James' posts on the matter, which should have been where the thread ended.

Rob

[Arnfinn Madsen]

You did not do much to explain your position either, so you should maybe not throw the 1st stone....... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Evan's post annoyed me too, but I chose to ignore at the thread. He claims something (correct or not) and his 2nd post sounded to me like "I know how to play poker, so I don't have to explain, since what I say is right". It is arrogant and impolite, and a bit better should be expected from a mod.

Is 2+2 going downhill? No, still there are many good threads with good contributions from good posters.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe you are right. I guess I should have said "I don't see a significant difference in monetary return between folding and capping. If I fold, I lose zero. If I cap, I expect a very small return in the longrun, so I don't see much difference between the two.

I actually thought my response was self-evident. Perhaps it was not.

[/ QUOTE ]

this explanation is just a wordier version of your original post. it doesn't add anything.

how about explaining how you arrive at roughly 0 EV for a cap, and then explaining why a cap is better than a call?

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
i know of quite a few posters that always post well developed responses that to me, are always self-evident. i often dont read their replies or i skim them to get to the good stuff. i realize however that to many other people their thoughts might not be self-evident, so they are doing them a service. lately when im replying to a thread i dont post self-evident reasoning when i know the op knows my thoughts. if i have something to say that i think someone might not take into account i say it. your reasoning for why the cap or fold doesnt matter is indeed self-evident, but i also think its wrong. evan's arguement is also likely self-evident. i personally appreciate it when posters reply to my threads with correct answers, whether they elaborate on them or not. twoplustwo isnt going downhill because of oneliners. people (usually) post oneliners because their thoughts are self-evident and dont do anybody a service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your response. I obvously don't play on your level, or on Evan's. Given the limited information about the texture of the particular game, the players, and their current psychological state of mind, let me state that I don't see a large financial difference between folding the hand to the reraise, and capping - since in the long run I think the cap will have only a small return.

At this point, based on your statement that Evan's reply was self-evident,I will make the assumption that capping has a larger return than I originally thought. However, I still don't know this for fact because I obviously am not a strong enough player to read between the lines.

Perhaps I need to read more, and post less.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[TStoneMBD]

btw im not even saying the cap is right or not. i dont even know the hand/situation. i just think that saying capping or folding makes little/no difference is probably very wrong.

[BottlesOf]

Neither response of Evan's are sarcatic. You should look that word up.

However, the first one wasn't helpful, I'm guilty of quick responses like that too sometimes.

The second response and his second point in the second response is dead on. The burden is on the person making the claim that something isn't the way it seems. To clarify, raising and folding are two very different actions, saying that choosing one over the other doesn't matter, i.e. saying they produce the same effect (EVwise) is the bolder statement and requires more justification than objecting to it does, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]


Too often threads becoming pissing contests where everyone tries to sound like an expert and bash everyone else.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think this quote is most representative of reality, maybe not SO MUCH in the case of the mods, but certainly it holds true for many many underlings.

Cambraceres

[Niediam]

The problem with this forum is that it used to be filled with intelligent people looking to work on their game while now it is filled with people who literally can't understand the concepts in a book like SSH or HoH.

[dogmeat]

Alright, the original thread on this subject was this:

It's a $50/$100 game online.

MP1 raises and is 23/11
MP2 reraises and is 22/9

Player with JJ folds. Is this the right move?

I did not consider the OP's options to include cold calling. I considered only a cap or a fold.

I know nothing about the rest of the table, but guessed that there would not be any callers if the JJ hand capped.

If JJ caps, he assumes that the original raiser will call, and the reraiser would have raised with hands that will include AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, as well as AK. Also assume that these are the hands that the first raiser will hold.

Given this information, the times that these hands hit (very roughly - disregarding whether any of these are mutually exclusive) in 1000 is:

AA 5x, KK 5x, QQ 5x, JJ 2.5x, TT 5x, AK 9x.

JJ wins 45% of the time when both opponents hold TT, and AK (14 times). JJ wins 24% of the time when both hold a small pair or JJ (2.5 times). JJ wins 18% of the time when either opponent holds AA,KK, or QQ (15 times). If the pot becomes $1850 by the end, with JJ putting in $600 each hand, and this rough math assumes 31.5 hands, then it costs $18,900 to play, and returns $17,800. Clearly folding is a better option.

If, however, I can add 99 to a possible hand of the reraiser, then I can expect to win $1100.

So, I can either lose $1100 or win $1100. I don't see a difference between either capping or folding.

Now if I think the raisers will raise with even weaker hands, then I certainly want to cap. I probably get enough extra income to also make this a cap instead of a fold if I am pretty sure I will pick up another caller.

I'm done.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[sthief09]

your first statement was stated authoritatively. it was also wrong. if there is a chance youre wrong just say "i think" in front of it and it pisses people off a lot less.

EV-wise maybe it doesnt make a huge difference, but EV is not all that matters. you have to know how to make the decisions so when a situation with a big difference comes up, youll play it well

you are completely in the wrong here

[TStoneMBD]

i hate it when i see good posters say stuff like "its too close to matter" or "i dont think either action will affect your winrate much". saying stuff like that just means that you dont know what the right play/frequency is or how to logically come to a conclusion.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

JJ wins 45% of the time when both opponents hold TT, and AK (14 times). JJ wins 24% of the time when both hold a small pair or JJ (2.5 times). JJ wins 18% of the time when either opponent holds AA,KK, or QQ (15 times). If the pot becomes $1850 by the end, with JJ putting in $600 each hand, and this rough math assumes 31.5 hands, then it costs $18,900 to play, and returns $17,800. Clearly folding is a better option.

If, however, I can add 99 to a possible hand of the reraiser, then I can expect to win $1100.

So, I can either lose $1100 or win $1100. I don't see a difference between either capping or folding.


[/ QUOTE ]


right, because the game is played preflop. nothing happens postflop. plus, your numbers arent even right. plus if you think those are their ranges in middle position, youre out of your mind

MP1- AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo, AA-77
MP2- AKs-AJs, AKo-AQo, AA-88

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.6577 % 25.47% 01.19% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QJs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 2: 34.9239 % 33.62% 01.30% { 88+, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 38.4184 % 37.68% 00.74% { JcJd }

[stoxtrader]

it looks like you are assigning the same range to the initial raiser and the re-raiser.

is that correct?

[UATrewqaz]

I didn't know you wanted actual discussion of the hand....

I will agree this is a definite cap or fold situation the answer being read dependent, if htey are maniacs/very laggy then its a cap, if sane players then fold.

Do your calculations involve what you will do if a lone ace or king falls? You figure you have to fold if one of them bets as AK now has you beat.

Are you thinking in terms of implied odds in the case both of them are holding AA/KK/QQ and you flop a J and get mucho bets in?

And then you have the VERY complicated situation if the flop comes

A/J/x

Then you may pay out the ass to AA (same story with a K/J/x flop).

[goofball]

if you think 2p2 is going down hill the way to fix it is to make coherent strategy posts as best and as often as you can. The way to make it worse is to make threads about 2p2 going downhill.

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

JJ wins 45% of the time when both opponents hold TT, and AK (14 times). JJ wins 24% of the time when both hold a small pair or JJ (2.5 times). JJ wins 18% of the time when either opponent holds AA,KK, or QQ (15 times). If the pot becomes $1850 by the end, with JJ putting in $600 each hand, and this rough math assumes 31.5 hands, then it costs $18,900 to play, and returns $17,800. Clearly folding is a better option.

If, however, I can add 99 to a possible hand of the reraiser, then I can expect to win $1100.

So, I can either lose $1100 or win $1100. I don't see a difference between either capping or folding.


[/ QUOTE ]


right, because the game is played preflop. nothing happens postflop. plus, your numbers arent even right. plus if you think those are their ranges in middle position, youre out of your mind

MP1- AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo, AA-77
MP2- AKs-AJs, AKo-AQo, AA-88

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.6577 % 25.47% 01.19% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QJs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 2: 34.9239 % 33.62% 01.30% { 88+, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 38.4184 % 37.68% 00.74% { JcJd }

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your response Josh. I'm afraid that my feeble mind can only think as far as it did when I am in the middle of a hand. I guess now that you have explained it to me, I have my answer, which is all I was asking in the first place - to be enlighteened as to why my belief that a fold or cap would return the same in the long run was apparantly incorrect.

FWIW, your statement that I must be out of my mind was less helpful, except to reenforce my feelings about moderators here.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
i hate it when i see good posters say stuff like "its too close to matter" or "i dont think either action will affect your winrate much". saying stuff like that just means that you dont know what the right play/frequency is or how to logically come to a conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or it means that given that there's always other mitigating factors, that there simply isn't a "right" answer.

[Evan]

Ha, I just found this thread. Glad to know that you think I'm the reason 2+2 is going downhill.

This post is not going to make me any more inclined to write long explanation about why capping and folding are very, very different. In fact, maybe a better solution is for you to just stop reading my posts, even ignore me.

I think people saying "capping ~ folding" degrades 2+2 a lot more than me saying "capping != folding".

[sweetjazz]

I think you would have a case if you had presented a detailed argument and received simple one-line responses. Given that you didn't bother to explain your thinking, I don't see how you can expect elaborate replies.

I have tried to make long posts where I put effort into them. Usually I get at least one good response and sometimes several good responses. I have, from time to time, received no serious replies. But that's life.

There's still a lot of good stuff on 2+2. There's also a lot of nonsense as well. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide whether there's enough of value here to make it worthwhile to sift through the junky stuff.

[Karmadog]

Don't worry about whether this forum is going downhill. I have seen it much worse on another poker forum, so much so I don't post at that site anymore. Nearly every post seemed to be filled with hate or degrading remarks devoid of any real value. This forum is nowhere near that point. Most likely people are just in a bad mood and need to cool off.

[kenberman]

maybe I misunderstood what the purpose of moderators is. I didn't think it was to be the guys who made the best posts - I thought it was people who would delete useless/wrong forum posts, and generally kept people on topic.

they are just volunteers, and you really shouldn't expect anything from them except keeping the forums 'clean'

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
you really shouldn't expect anything from them except keeping the forums 'clean'

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was a moderator I would use New Pine Scented Lysol TM.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
if you think 2p2 is going down hill the way to fix it is to make coherent strategy posts as best and as often as you can. The way to make it worse is to make threads about 2p2 going downhill.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Subfallen]

2+2 is better than ever you n00b.

[Ulysses]

dogmeat,

Have you tried the new Quick Reply feature?

Hope you enjoy it,
El Diablo

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]

This post is not going to make me any more inclined to write long explanation about why capping and folding are very, very different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody understands that capping and folding is very different actions. In this case it wasn't about that, but a question of EV-similarity or difference.

But why do you even care to write such a sentence? To repeat that your opinions are above explanation? Barry Greenstein explains his positions when they are questioned on this site. Are you above him too?

P.S. I think you are right on this one and Dogmeat is wrong. I just don't like your attitude.

[BK_]

you didnt explain why a cap and a fold are the same, so he didnt explain why he thought they wernt. dont see the problem

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody understands that capping and folding is very different actions. In this case it wasn't about that, but a question of EV-similarity or difference.

[/ QUOTE ]
They are different EV-wise. I don't think that needs any more explanation than saying they're different actions. Saying that cold capping is about 0 EV is a really bold statement, saying that it's not 0 EV is not.

[ QUOTE ]
But why do you even care to write such a sentence?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because dogmeat's post was about the least reasonable way to deal with a post of mine that he didn't like.

[ QUOTE ]
To repeat that your opinions are above explanation?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never said that my opinions are above explanations. I cannot repeat something I never said.

[ QUOTE ]
Barry Greenstein explains his positions when they are questioned on this site. Are you above him too?


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see what that has to do with anything. Second grade teachers explain lots of things that I don't feel the need to explain. Does that mean that I think I'm above them? Wouldn't a more reasonable answer be that I just don't feel like doing something that someone else does?

[whodaman]

so you make a short opinionated post and he replied with a simliar post and you get angry? I don't get it.

[ZenMusician]

Evan is actually getting better...he hasn't posted his
picture with the big pile of white chips in awhile...
Sthief is posting again-so is CMI sometimes, and even
sfer is far less toolish than a year ago today!

Hell, even I post serious replies now and then too.

-ZEN

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan is actually getting better...he hasn't posted his
picture with the big pile of white chips in awhile

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/mad.gif



[ QUOTE ]
even
sfer is far less toolish than a year ago today!

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope.

[albedoa]

[ QUOTE ]
so you make a short opinionated post and he replied with a simliar post and you get angry? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what happened, and I don't understand how dogmeat thinks he's the better man in this situation.

1. dogmeat makes a short reply with no substance.

2. Evan makes a short reply to dogmeat with no substance.

3. This is totally unacceptable to dogmeat because Evan is a moderator, and so dogmeat gets pissy and completely and hypocritically flips out on Evan.

4. Evan says "chill" and explains why his reply lacked substance.

5. dogmeat decides to make a thread about the time when he over-reacted to Evan making a reply which lacked substance to dogmeat's reply which lacked substance.

6. The rest of us look hard for a difference between the two replies that would somehow make Evan a better candidate for the cause of the demise of these forums, but we fail miserably.

The guy sees something we don't. I guess you gotta give him that.