QJo EMP in a Tightish Game

[beset7]

AVG vpip at the table over 90 hands or so is about 20. SB is the only loose player. 40/10/3 type of dude. I started raising offsuit broadway from EMP after I saw it folded around a few times. Getting ready to switch tables when:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Spewage? Limp preflop even at tight tables? Fold to the turn 3-bet? Two overs and a gutshot makes the flop call ok if all my outs are clean. I can't give an exact range on what the SB 3-bets with out of the small blind but given I was playing aggressively it's probably something like TT+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+. Too wide? I think even against that range I'm toast.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
AVG vpip at the table over 90 hands or so is about 20. SB is the only loose player. 40/10/3 type of dude. I started raising offsuit broadway from EMP after I saw it folded around a few times. Getting ready to switch tables when:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Spewage? Limp preflop even at tight tables? Fold to the turn 3-bet? Two overs and a gutshot makes the flop call ok if all my outs are clean. I can't give an exact range on what the SB 3-bets with out of the small blind but given I was playing aggressively it's probably something like TT+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+. Too wide? I think even against that range I'm toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think your range is way too wide - most players that are too loose and are generally bad don't pay attention to what you are doing. i'm pretty sure his 3-bet is not a reflection of your past aggressive play. i think you're looking at AJs+, AQo+, and 99+ many times here (from the sb).

i'd usually just call down from the turn on to see.

(i like the pf raise at the position and table you describe)

I raise the flop. You have position, a relatively strong hand, and you could use a cheap card on the turn. If three-bet on the flop I'd call and fold unimproved on the turn. Is raising this flop terrible?

As you played it, I think this isn't too bad. It sucks getting three-bet as it just screams overpair, but you still have to call with your gutshot plus trips/two pair draw. I also make the crying call on the river.

[jaxUp]

1. find a new table. Table selection will help improve your WR. Loose-ish tables at 2/4 shouldn't be hard to find.
2.It's not like you opened from CO on an obvious steal attempt. MP1 raise usually means business, so he's usually not 3-betting too light. You will usually see TT+, or AK/AQ, with pocket pairs being at least as likely as AK/AQ (probably moreso)
3.I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. Getting him to fold AK is very nice for you here. However, with the gutshot + 2 pair/trips draw, you can't fold to the 3-bet because now you've bloated the pot. Call turn and call river.

This is a pretty good time to take a WA/WB line.

[beset7]

Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

grunch

call preflop

as you played it call flop

just call turn and river

Preflop: It seems to me like this is a little bit too early to be open raising w/ this hand. I think it's OK to do at this table, but I'd probably want to be a seat or two closer to the button personally.

Flop: Agreed the odds merit a call

Turn: I think the turn raise is ok given this guy's AF. He could easily be coming after you w/ A8, A6, etc. He's raised 9 of the 90 hands you've seen him play, so my guess is that he's raising any Ace or King preflop. You could have him beat here, so I think a raise is ok.

River: I think a crying call is merited here w/ top pair heads up.

I would have to say it is. Even at low limits playing against people w/ far lower skill level than you, I think they are going to notice something as big as a raise/fold preflop. You'll be a target for the rest of the session.

[bozlax]

Preflop: I like the play at this table, as long as you don't feel like anybody's picking up on it (tables this tight at 2/4 usually make me think there's at least one or two good players seated).

Flop: two overcards, backdoor straight and flush draws, HU with Mr. Laggro, g00t peel.

Turn: ok, you've got top pair, now, but that card puts another flush draw on the board, and potentially completes a straight. Just call down, your FE is nonexistent, and being 3-bet by this player shouldn't be enough to let you fold.

River: you'll see AK/AT/etc here often enough to look him up.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. preflop in limit holdem you shouldn't raise and fold for one more bet. folding for 2 more bets can be perfectly acceptable.

[jaxUp]

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, so my guess is that he's raising any Ace or King preflop

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I agree he would raise those preflop, but his 3-betting range is much narrower.

Also, this turn raise is not good. People seem to be saying that it's okay because we might have him beat here, which is true. However, he will almost never fold this, and we can't fold to a 3-bet. I think that the times we get 3-bet (or called down) when we're behind push this turn raise into -EV land.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
3.I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. Getting him to fold AK is very nice for you here. However, with the gutshot + 2 pair/trips draw, you can't fold to the 3-bet because now you've bloated the pot. Call turn and call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in a smaller pot or with less outs (maybe sans gutshot) I can raise/fold to a 3-bet here?

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
grunch

call preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

QJo is the textbook example of a hand NOT to openlimp from MP preflop.

Can someone explain why calling the flop is better than raising? Is it because there's only one player in the hand, or the pot is too small, or just that our hand doesn't have enough value?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yeah. It's an even huger mistake than limp/folding when it's one back to you, and that's a pretty huge mistake. Especially in a situation like this where you've got a guy who may be over-zealously defending.

(By the way, did anyone else almost die laughing at Norm Chad on the Thanksgiving day WSP telecasts continuously criticising "amateurs" for "thinking they have to 'defend' their blind"? He's funny.)

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is a no no. I am not a fan of your pre flop raise i probably muck it from a middle position and raise it from the hi jack, co or button. The turn raise sucks because you can't fold to a 3-bet with as many as 9 possible outs vs an overpair.

[beset7]

awesome. this is good because when I call the flop with overs and I get there on the turn I automatically raise.

[bozlax]

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So in a smaller pot or with less outs (maybe sans gutshot) I can raise/fold to a 3-bet here?

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The biggest determinant in this particular hand, IMO, is Villan. With TPGK I don't see folding to the LAG no matter what redraws I have (even though it was the draws that got you to the turn in the first place). Looking for an excuse to fold, here, is weak-tight. Rather than raise/folding the turn, just call/call and showdown for the same amount.

[jaxUp]

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This is a pretty good time to take a WA/WB line.

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I am retarded. This is not WA/WB. I still want to just call down, but I just want to clarify that it is wrong of me to call it WA/WB. We are never WA here. He will almost always have at least 6 outs, and we also have a shitton of outs.

Let me rephrase my thoughts on why we should call the turn. If we want, we can raise the turn with what may or may not be the best hand, and pay up to 4BB to call down with TPGK, or we can call the turn, and then call river UI, paying 2BB to show down. This also gives us the chance to raise the river when our straight/2pair/trips comes in.

[tiltaholic]

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[ QUOTE ]
3.I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. Getting him to fold AK is very nice for you here. However, with the gutshot + 2 pair/trips draw, you can't fold to the 3-bet because now you've bloated the pot. Call turn and call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in a smaller pot or with less outs (maybe sans gutshot) I can raise/fold to a 3-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the two primary reasons for not raising the turn are:
-the aggressiveness of the villian.
-the likelyhood we are behind.

if we put villian on a tight range of "3-bets from the SB" we are only currently ahead of 99, AQ, and AK, while behind to TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, and AJ. at first glance that looks like ahead of 44 combinations and behind 60.

so that right there argues against a turn raise.

but we also know him to be aggressive. which means he is very likley to 3-bet us, independant of the pot size. a turn raise would be optimal if we thought villian would only call, even with a better hand (and then check the river or would call on the turn with missed overcards but won't put a bet in on the river).

since he's aggressive, we get 2 bets in anyway by calling the turn and calling the river.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3.I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. Getting him to fold AK is very nice for you here. However, with the gutshot + 2 pair/trips draw, you can't fold to the 3-bet because now you've bloated the pot. Call turn and call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in a smaller pot or with less outs (maybe sans gutshot) I can raise/fold to a 3-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

in a smaller pot, against a weaker villain, without the gutshot I like a raise/fold. As it stands, he'll be laying you 10:1 on a 3-bet here, so you'd be correct to call with just the Q and J outs.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
awesome. this is good because when I call the flop with overs and I get there on the turn I automatically raise.

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another problem is that in this case, while you sortof got there you didn't actually get there for sure since you are still behind the majority of villians holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the flop.

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I wouldn't recommend raising the flop here. You are up against an opponent who 3-bet you preflop and you are only on a couple of weak draws. Now he has bet into you again (still indicating a strong hand). Worse, his AF is 3.00, which means he's not the type of guy to give you a free card. I think you can count on a player like this betting into you on every street.

[beset7]

I can sure see why a couple people want to raise the flop and turn (Hell, I did) but I'm likin' the call turn, call river UI and obviously raise if I make two pair or better.

One other question, when he raised the turn I considered discounting an out or two in case he had one of the two FDs. Waste of time and good equity versus a LAG?

[BatsShadow]

grunch:

To me, the turn 3-bet says you are behind.

But more importantly: don't limp, don't raise, fold PF.

[jaxUp]

He might have a FD some of the time, but regardless, you're going to have odds to draw in this siuation.

[McGahee]

Fold PF - too early to open limp or raise this especially if you're not all that comfortable with your postflop game. I'd raise it from MP3.
Flop is good. I'd just call down from the turn. There's no way you can fold to a 3-bet given your outs coupled with the fact that villian is a nut.

[adsman]

The turn is the most interesting part of the hand. I think you have to ask yourself, 'why am I raising here?' If you raise you're doing it to knock him out or for value when he's behind. But if he reraises you that's a clear message that you're toast and you can safely fold. Raising costs you two bets when you're behind if you fold. When you're ahead and he calls you down you win one bet more than if you'd just clicked the call button. But if you make this play and call down when he reraises you, then you've paid off 4BB on a losing hand instead of two.
I think you only want to make this raise if in the situations that you're behind you have no outs. You have outs here, namely the 9 for the one card gutshot. I don't think you can call a Q an out since it will make AK very happy indeed.

And to all those people who blithly posted "fold preflop", did you read the original post? The OP clearly discribed why the table conditions were ripe for this sort of play. This is called switching gears and it's what the really good players do. Merely saying fold it because that's what a chart says without taking into consideration other factors isn't going to take you very far.

[McGahee]

I've never used a chart before in my life. Raising a marginal offsuit holding in EP at a tight table is no good; and certainly not conducive to the "table conditions".

[beset7]

nice post.

[@bsolute_luck]

preflop is creatively fine. i wouldn't make it a standard play, but mixing it in isn't bad.

i think i'd call the turn instead of raising. you have a gutshot and your Jax and Queens maybe good, so call to see the river. he seems a bit aggressive, so you could call this river, but i think i'd like to fold since i doubt he's betting this river with UI or some hand with a T in it. but that would be up to you and how comfortable you are with your read.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
. I don't think you can call a Q an out since it will make AK very happy indeed.


[/ QUOTE ]

AK is just a part of villain's range here, and I don't think you can completely ignore all Q's especially once he 3-bets the turn. When he 3-bets the turn, I start to think overpair. I'd be surprised to see AK more than 1/4 of the time and thing you can count about 2-2.5 outs for the Q's, 1.75-2 outs for the J's. and 4 outs for the 9s.even taking the low end of those out estimations we have almost 8 outs.

And just to clarify, this:

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise you're doing it to knock him out or for value when he's behind. But if he reraises you that's a clear message that you're toast and you can safely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

was referring to when you have significantly fewer outs (like half as many) right? Because folding to the turn 3-bet here would just be awful.

[bozlax]

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But if he reraises you that's a clear message that you're toast and you can safely fold.

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I agree with everything you said, except the above. This is the problem with raising the turn...his 3-bet means nothing, given that he's a 40% VPIP with a 3 PAF. So you CAN'T safely fold to the 3-bet, a raise WON'T knock him off his hand, ever, and you have no idea if you can raise for value. Ergo, call/call and see the cheapest showdown you can.

[moa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

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yes. preflop in limit holdem you shouldn't raise and fold for one more bet unless you're johny chan playing some high stakes poker with mike mcclain. . folding for 2 more bets can be perfectly acceptable.

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fyp

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain why calling the flop is better than raising? Is it because there's only one player in the hand, or the pot is too small, or just that our hand doesn't have enough value?

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Because Villain is folding basically never, we may have only backdoor outs and getting 3bet sucks.

About raise/fold preflop: You're always getting at least 5-to-1, usually 6-to-1, on calling a reraise so you kind of have to call no matter how tight your opponent is, especially in position. I would fold even after raising in this situation if the BB capped regardless of his stats.

[Shillx]

Your options are to just calldown or raise the turn and then not put more then 1 BB into the pot from that point on.

Calling down makes the hand a lot easier to play so that is what I'd do. If you raise the turn and get called, what do you do on the river? How much value is there in a river bet here. I just don't know. If you do raise the turn though, you can't call both a 3-bet and a river bet. You obviously have to call the reraise, but you have to fold the river UI. I would just calldown and expect him to show me AK or AQ or whatever enough of the time to make it worthwile.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
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But if he reraises you that's a clear message that you're toast and you can safely fold.

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I agree with everything you said, except the above. This is the problem with raising the turn...his 3-bet means nothing, given that he's a 40% VPIP with a 3 PAF. So you CAN'T safely fold to the 3-bet, a raise WON'T knock him off his hand, ever, and you have no idea if you can raise for value. Ergo, call/call and see the cheapest showdown you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear in my post. What I was saying was with that argument you can't be sure if he 3-bets that you're toast against this kind of player. Which makes raising the turn even worse. He re-pops you, are you toast? You don't know. This guy is too murky. So don't raise the turn. It all goes to the oft-quoted line;

"Don't bet or raise if a reraise will make you throw up in your mouth."

Call it down.

[beset7]

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Your options are to just calldown or raise the turn and then not put more then 1 BB into the pot from that point on.


[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to clarify, this means if I raise the turn I should fold to a river bet?