What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?

[Gunny Highway]

I take the view that taxation is nothing more than theft. Those that do not take this view argue that it is not theft because the property that is taken is used for my own benefit, as well as that of others. So what is the difference between these two scenarios from a moral standpoint?

Scenario 1) I'm forced to pay taxes against my will. The taxes are used for the benefit of the whole community.

Scenario 2) Someone breaks into my house and steals my bankroll. The money is donated to the local school for the benefit of the whole community.

Discuss. <font color="white">I'm pretty sure i know the answer I'm going to get, but this should be a good jumping off point for a discussion. </font>

[Solami17]

1. You are forced to pay taxes because the government says you have to. If you do not like the way your tax system works, your best bet is to move to a state that fits you better. The taxes you do pay do benefit your entire community though. They build better schools for our next generation, help the needy(one thing I am not too big on), and allow us to fight for our freedom.

2. As for someone stealing your BR and donating it to a school, well that is just plain ridiculous. What thief brakes an entry to steal money to just givr away. Most people would just ask for a donation, dont you think. If someone were to break into your house, though, this government you pay taxes to allows us to own fire arms.
Shoot the b@$t@rd!

[Gunny Highway]

So why shouldn't it be ok to shoot a government representative that comes to my house to try to collect taxes? I don't want to give him the taxes. He's trying to forcefullytake them (ir. throw me in jail if I don't pay). How is that morally any different from say a gang of armed criminals coming to my house to take my money and give it to a "worthy" cause that benefits the community?

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not like the way your tax system works, your best bet is to move to a state that fits you better.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's a bully at school that steals your lunchmoney and gives you wedgies, your best bet is to move to a school with no bullies.

[superleeds]

Why do you believe you don't benefit?

Scenario 2 is simply what will happen if you don't pay your taxes in scenario 1.

[PoBoy321]

Scenario 1) You live in America. If you want to live in America, you have to pay your taxes (think of it like membership dues). If you don't want to pay your taxes, leave.

Scenario 2) You don't have any allegiance to the thief for which you would have to pay anything, so this is criminal.

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you believe you don't benefit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I say I don't benefit? That's not the point at all.

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 2 is simply what will happen if you don't pay your taxes in scenario 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, what will happen if I don't pay my taxes is that a gang of government-sponsored thugs will either extract the money under threat of violence or kidnap me.

[Rduke55]

Where does the money that pays you jarheads come from?

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did I say I don't benefit? That's not the point at al

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want all the benefits of living in a stable, complex, industralised country but you don't want to pay for it?

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 2 is simply what will happen if you don't pay your taxes in scenario 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, what will happen if I don't pay my taxes is that a gang of government-sponsored thugs will either extract the money under threat of violence or kidnap me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, the same way that a bunch of government-sponsored thugs will extract money from you if you don't pay child support, or kidnap you if you rob a bank?

[El Barto]

So, I guess you are deliberately trying to muddle the legitimate efforts of many to keep taxes low. We are all part of this society and we get to elect our gov'mint. We should elect those who will let us live our lives with the minimum taxes we can get by with for the legitimate needs of the society.

As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

What matters: Keeping taxes low for all of us.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to build a fence and plant some trees. Since this will beautify the area (according to *my* definition), everyone else on the street will benefit from it. Therefore, everyone else on the street better pay their share (which I will determine for them) or else they will get a boot to the head. If they don't like it, they can move.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to build a fence and plant some trees. Since this will beautify the area (according to *my* definition), everyone else on the street will benefit from it. Therefore, everyone else on the street better pay their share (which I will determine for them) or else they will get a boot to the head. If they don't like it, they can move.

[/ QUOTE ]

You quoted my second paragraph. Now read my first paragraph.

There are towns that do just what you suggest. We need to vote out those stupid politicians.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
I take the view that taxation is nothing more than theft

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't. You pretend that you do to try to sound tough about taxes.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
You quoted my second paragraph. Now read my first paragraph.

There are towns that do just what you suggest. We need to vote out those stupid politicians.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then what? Put in some other stupid politicians that will do the same thing? Those politicians were elected, were they not? You first claim that their election gives them legitimacy, then complain about what they do with their office?

You don't see that the problem isn't the particular "stupid politicians" that are in office at any given time, but rather with the system that allows and encourages them to do stupid stuff and steal your money and spend it on their own pet projects?

If your answer is "we just need to elect smarter politicians" what you're really just saying is "we just need to elect people that do what *I* want, anyone that does what some other guy wants is 'stupid'".

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, the same way that a bunch of government-sponsored thugs will extract money from you if you don't pay child support, or kidnap you if you rob a bank?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you rob a bank, you are initiating force against another. When you refuse to pay taxes, you're resisting the government's initiation of force against you.

Is shooting someone in cold blood the same as shooting someone that's attacking you with an axe?

[Felix_Nietsche]

If a country does not have taxes then it will eventually die…..probably by an invasion by a neighboring totalitarian regime. This is history talking…..not me.

Taxes are more “protection money” than theft. It provides the funding to control crime and violence. Also when you travel overseas, your govt provides a certain amount of protection as well. Back in the days of the Roman Empire, a Roman citizen who found himself in trouble just had to utter the words, “I’m a Roman Citizen” and this was enough to get him/her out of trouble.

The best goal we can hope for is low taxes.

[hmkpoker]

The typical cause of taxes is mutual benefit through government intervention. The typical cause of theft is personal need. Assuming that the same amount is being taken in both scenarios, the end is the same...scenario 2 is just terribly unrealistic.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right, the same way that a bunch of government-sponsored thugs will extract money from you if you don't pay child support, or kidnap you if you rob a bank?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you rob a bank, you are initiating force against another. When you refuse to pay taxes, you're resisting the government's initiation of force against you.

Is shooting someone in cold blood the same as shooting someone that's attacking you with an axe?

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that because you don't agree with a law, you have the right to break it?

I'm sure NAMBLA would love you.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
If a country does not have taxes then it will eventually die…..probably by an invasion by a neighboring totalitarian regime. This is history talking…..not me.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are ways of buying defense services without forced taxation (insurance and financial vehicles). It's a need just like anything else, and the market can fill it.

Food is a very important need, probably more important than defense, yet people can see that there's no need to nationalize its production and delivery.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying that because you don't agree with a law, you have the right to break it?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I am, however, definitely saying that laws are not inherently sacred and unquestionable.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure NAMBLA would love you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good tactic. If you can't match your opponent, call him a child molester.

[TomCollins]

pvn,

Who pays for it then? How do the services differ for those who choose to pay and those who do not? If everyone but me agreed to pay for defense, how is another country going to invade my property but not yours? What about when more people wise up and stop paying?

This is much different than food. If I don't get food, I starve. I can't stop paying for food and still be fed by others.

[mrmazoo]

The difference is, you'll go to jail if you evade #1 but you'll be a hero if you evade #2.

[mrmazoo]

BTW, I noticed that the picture on your icon appears to be that of a soldier.

Do you also believe that taxation for the purpose of paying for military expenditures/adventures is theft as well?

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 2) Someone breaks into my house and steals my bankroll. The money is donated to the local school for the benefit of the whole community.



[/ QUOTE ]

Robber 1: Hey man, you sure these people are on vacation?
Robber 2: Yes, I'm sure.
Robber 1: And you can bypass the alarm?
Robber 2: Yeah, don't worry about it. I'm telling you this is gonna be our biggest score yet.
Robber 1: Man, I can't wait to donate this money.

[ QUOTE ]
pvn,

Who pays for it then? How do the services differ for those who choose to pay and those who do not? If everyone but me agreed to pay for defense, how is another country going to invade my property but not yours? What about when more people wise up and stop paying?


[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. I would add what if one person has all or a vast majority of the money? What if he says he'll pay for the protection of all, and if not he'll let the others invade? What if he decides that his money equals power and wants control over those with no wherewithal to stop him?
What if he uses his money for a propaganda campaigns?

PVN is right, anarcho-capitalist isn't a utopia. It's a dystopia. I'd much rather submit to the government "gun to my head" than to the invisible hand grasping dollar bills and wiping the greed-induced drool from his invisible lips.

[phage]

I work at a VA hospital. I can guarantee you that there are ways in which tax dollars do a lot of good. The idea that a complex society can be run without some form of taxation is naive.

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
I work at a VA hospital. I can guarantee you that there are ways in which tax dollars do a lot of good. The idea that a complex society can be run without some form of taxation is naive.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why stop at the VA hospital, why not nationalize all hospitals? And banks... and oil companies... The money will be used for good!

[phage]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I work at a VA hospital. I can guarantee you that there are ways in which tax dollars do a lot of good. The idea that a complex society can be run without some form of taxation is naive.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why stop at the VA hospital, why not nationalize all hospitals? And banks... and oil companies... The money will be used for good!

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I realize you are not advocating that sort of change but then again I am of a different political persuasion.

However, for those who would do away with taxes completely-How do you run a modern society such as that in any western country.

[TomCollins]

1% tarriff on anything coming into or out of this country. Should be able to pay for a military.

[phage]

So, in fact you are in favour of some sort of government collection of money that would be distributed at their discretion.

[cardcounter0]

Scenario 1) The taxes are taken by a govt. established by a vote of the people, and run by people who are elected by a vote of the people. The money is spent by those same people who have to be periodically re-elected by a vote of the people.

Scenario 2) You have no voice in who breaks into your house. You have no voice in how much they take. You have no voice in who they donate the money too.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 1) The taxes are taken by a govt. established by a vote of the people, and run by people who are elected by a vote of the people. The money is spent by those same people who have to be periodically re-elected by a vote of the people.

Scenario 2) You have no voice in who breaks into your house. You have no voice in how much they take. You have no voice in who they donate the money too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you clearly aren't a Macho-Man, allow me to explain why Scenario 2 is inconceivable to the "NO TAXES! IT'S STEALING!" crowd:

No one would EVER DARE cross paths with these no-government-tough guys, because without the government, no one would be able to feminize them, and tell them which guns (and other defense machinery) they can and can't buy.

Ergo, these warriors will arms themselves to the hilt to protect hearth and home, and ain't no one ever gonna' try to break into their house, lest they have to deal with them, and their heavily armed and defended home.

Long story short, real men don't need the government -- and taking taxes from a real man is tantamount to cutting off his penis, because it’s just your typical girly-type thieving, which takes a man’s hard earned cash and doles it out to lazy bums who don’t do man’s work, and who don’t do what’s necessary to take care of their family (which real men do).

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pvn,

Who pays for it then? How do the services differ for those who choose to pay and those who do not? If everyone but me agreed to pay for defense, how is another country going to invade my property but not yours? What about when more people wise up and stop paying?


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/Murphy6.pdf

"The existence of the insurance and call option markets ensure that the standard zero defense outcome cannot be a market equilibrium."

[ QUOTE ]
Good question. I would add what if one person has all or a vast majority of the money? What if he says he'll pay for the protection of all, and if not he'll let the others invade? What if he decides that his money equals power and wants control over those with no wherewithal to stop him?
What if he uses his money for a propaganda campaigns?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if that happens in a state-dominated system? Geez, if you're going to come up with a fantasyland edge case, at least come up with one that doesn't break down in a statist system, too.

How is someone going to obtain the "vast majority of money" anyway?

[Gunny Highway]

Did anyone read what was posed here? This thread was not about why taxes do or do not have to occur. It was about how are these two scenarios different.

Saying we have to tax to provide govt. services is no different than saying a poor person has to steal to survive. That's all the govt. is doing; perpetuating itself through theft.

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
Where does the money that pays you jarheads come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread is not about where it comes from. I know where it comes from. That doesn't make it right.

But if govt. services were cut back to only providing for the common defense, some federal law enforcement, and a few others, those could be paid for by an inflation tax, which although it is a form of taxation is at least spread equally and does not involve the govt. demanding the money directly.

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I take the view that taxation is nothing more than theft

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't. You pretend that you do to try to sound tough about taxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very unlike you, Mr. Blues. Your arguments are normally well thought out, this one is not. It is a bad one-liner that I suppose you thought was clever, but is really just dumb. You do not know me or my beliefs, and in this case you're just wrong.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Saying we have to tax to provide govt. services is no different than saying a poor person has to steal to survive. That's all the govt. is doing; perpetuating itself through theft.

[/ QUOTE ]

But for the fact that the people have agreed to the existence of the government and its needs to support itself both in the establishment of the constitution and in the election of individuals who have created our laws. Taxes are part of a social compact that we have made (or at least our predecessors have made.) I really don't know what to tell you if you can't (or pretend you can't) see the difference.

Essentially, we get the government that we've asked for. The fact that you hold a minority position and can't get the government to change is part of living in a democratic republic.

[elwoodblues]

Let me put it this way --- if you thought taxes was theft (and didn't see a difference), I suspect you would be posting from prison right now. Are you? Have you tried to stop paying taxes? Have you fought people trying to collect taxes?

I stand by my original response.

[ QUOTE ]
This is very unlike you...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
But for the fact that the people have agreed to the existence of the government

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't.

[ QUOTE ]
Taxes are part of a social compact that we have made (or at least our predecessors have made.)

[/ QUOTE ]

How do agreements that my predecessors have made bind me?

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, we get the government that we've asked for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't ask for it.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that you hold a minority position and can't get the government to change is part of living in a democratic republic.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if 51% of the people want to kill the other 49%, it's just part of democracy, right?

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me put it this way --- if you thought taxes was theft (and didn't see a difference), I suspect you would be posting from prison right now. Are you? Have you tried to stop paying taxes? Have you fought people trying to collect taxes?

I stand by my original response.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. If someone puts a gun to my head in a dark alley and demands my wallet, I give it to him. Likewise, when government-sponsored thugs demand my property under threat of violence, I give it to them. My family needs me too much to spend my life in jail. As for what I'd do if I didn't have a family, it may or may not be different. I cannot say.

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
But for the fact that the people have agreed to the existence of the government and its needs to support itself both in the establishment of the constitution and in the election of individuals who have created our laws. Taxes are part of a social compact that we have made (or at least our predecessors have made.) I really don't know what to tell you if you can't (or pretend you can't) see the difference.

Essentially, we get the government that we've asked for. The fact that you hold a minority position and can't get the government to change is part of living in a democratic republic.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're exactly right. That is the difference. That is the answer I was looking for. Also, what you've just implied is that any immoral act is no longer immoral as long as enough people agree to it.

[nicky g]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to build a fence and plant some trees. Since this will beautify the area (according to *my* definition), everyone else on the street will benefit from it. Therefore, everyone else on the street better pay their share ( which I will determine for them ) or else they will get a boot to the head. If they don't like it, they can move.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realise you don't think democracy is a legitimate defence of taxes, but there is a difference between elected representatives determining something and random individuals doing the same. Your analaogy is imappropriate.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
How do agreements that my predecessors have made bind me?


[/ QUOTE ]

Society would collapse without this foundation.

[ QUOTE ]
So if 51% of the people want to kill the other 49%, it's just part of democracy, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we also have a Constitution that protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority. In a strict democracy, I suppose you are right. We do not live in a strict democracy. It really is a clever little system we have going (that you never approved of, but are receiving the benefits of.) You should read up on it.

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
No, we also have a Constitution that protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you really believe this?

[ QUOTE ]
In a strict democracy, I suppose you are right. We do not live in a strict democracy. It really is a clever little system we have going (that you never approved of, but are receiving the benefits of.) You should read up on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Allowing the uneducated and stupid to elect the corrupt and incompetent really is a clever system.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
No, we also have a Constitution that protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] Do you really believe this?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The existence of the bill of rights is a very compelling reason to believe this.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Allowing the uneducated and stupid to elect the corrupt and incompetent really is a clever system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. What's so clever about it is that we allow people to choose their own destinies leaders instead of having someone else choose for them regardless of whether you think they're smart enough. If you don't like the stupid and uneducated voting, find a way to educate them to your beliefs. If you don't like who's running for office, run yourself or support candidates who you prefer.

The more I write about it, the more I like the system.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
What's so clever about it is that we allow people to choose their own destinies leaders instead of having someone else choose for them regardless of whether you think they're smart enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I don't get to chose my own leaders. A bunch of people, of which I'm only one (maybe, if the mob allows me to vote), gets to decide who the leaders are for everyone. Why can't I just make my own decisions directly?

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like the stupid and uneducated voting, find a way to educate them to your beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand why *I* should be forced to labor because of their "stupid and uneducated" nature - why should they be able to impose upon me?

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like who's running for office, run yourself or support candidates who you prefer.

[/ QUOTE ]

That implies that I support the idea of telling other people what to do, as long as the orders are ones I agree with.

[ QUOTE ]
The more I write about it, the more I like the system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of tyrants like tyrannical systems.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of tyrants like tyrannical systems

[/ QUOTE ]

Over-use of hyperbole, which you are prone to do, weakens your arguments considerably.

[ QUOTE ]
Geez, if you're going to come up with a fantasyland edge case...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So if 51% of the people want to kill the other 49%, it's just part of democracy, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's okay if you do it, though, right? And I don't think it's all that 'fantasyland' imagining a society where one person, or a small group of people, are able to get enough wealth to corrupt them and want power. It happens all the time, with states and before there were states. I'm not all that big a fan of the concept of the state, but if it's a choice between A-C and a western state, I'll choose the state.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 2 is simply what will happen if you don't pay your taxes in scenario 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, what will happen if I don't pay my taxes is that a gang of government-sponsored thugs will either extract the money under threat of violence or kidnap me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on. Isn't that still pretty much the same thing as some clown breaking into your house and stealing from you?

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Geez, if you're going to come up with a fantasyland edge case...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So if 51% of the people want to kill the other 49%, it's just part of democracy, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's okay if you do it, though, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

You left out the important part when you quoted me. My edge case doesn't blow up in the system I'm advocating.

[ QUOTE ]
And I don't think it's all that 'fantasyland' imagining a society where one person, or a small group of people, are able to get enough wealth to corrupt them and want power.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Enough wealth to corrupt them" is not what you said. You said "the vast majority of wealth."

[ QUOTE ]
It happens all the time, with states and before there were states.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why is a state preferable, then? A state just gives these corrupt individuals a vehicle to wield their corrupt power with a varnish of "legitimacy" slapped on. You're making yet another argument using a case where the system you advocate fails more spectacularly than the system you're arguing against.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lots of tyrants like tyrannical systems

[/ QUOTE ]

Over-use of hyperbole, which you are prone to do, weakens your arguments considerably.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Oppressors often like oppressive systems (as long as they get to be the oppressors). Better?