KK unimproved, facing a push and a call

[thatpfunk]

6max party 100
Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($94.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($95.15)</font>
BB ($113.10)
UTG ($46.60)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($120.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">CO ($268.73)</font>

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $4.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $4, MP calls $4.

Flop: ($21) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $10, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $30</font>, Hero calls $20, MP calls $20.

Turn: ($111) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP calls $85.60 (All-In), CO calls $85.60, Hero calls $60.15 (All-In).

Final Pot: $342.35

[Reef]

Reraise PF, CO has a worse hand than you- he'll most likely call. I don't particularly like KK 4 handed.

3 bet all in on the flop. You're ahead of his JT

[thatpfunk]

i dont care about pf or flop, those are uninteresting.

[henrikrh]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont care about pf or flop, those are uninteresting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should care, that's where you made the mistakes that got you into a very tough decision.

[scrapperdog]

If you re-raise pre flop that pretty much eliminates someone having A4 suited or something like that and makes this hand a lot easier to play on the other streets.

[Homesig]

If CO is so bad why not reraise preflop and isolate him preflop.. Going 4 handed with KK is always a mistake if you haven't raise preflop. I wouldn't be surprised if MP has 22.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont care about pf or flop, those are uninteresting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should care, that's where you made the mistakes that got you into a very tough decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

i found the decision pretty avg and was made pretty quickly.

this is why this forum sucks, anything remotely unorthodox preflop becomes the focus of any hand discussion.

"omg, i gave up some equity pf because i know it would kill/severely limit my action against the moron postflop" oh well.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
If CO is so bad why not reraise preflop and isolate him preflop.. Going 4 handed with KK is always a mistake if you haven't raise preflop. I wouldn't be surprised if MP has 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, it sure would make a lot of sense to open push with the best hand when a [censored] player has raised the flop and will bet again on the turn and potentially trap the SB (me) so i can get both their stacks.

i mean, seriously.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
If you re-raise pre flop that pretty much eliminates someone having A4 suited or something like that and makes this hand a lot easier to play on the other streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

i want the bad players stack, i don't mind tough situations if i think it will increase my chances of doing so.

[ QUOTE ]

i want the bad players stack, i don't mind tough situations if i think it will increase my chances of doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be increasing the size of the pot you could win, but you're seriously decreasing your chances of winning it by playing it this way.

I understand you'd like to win a huge pot with your kings, but when playing them this way you're going to lose your stack more times than you'll triple up.

The people here are simply trying to show you that by playing the hand this way you're giving up lots of EV to build the pot.

[4_2_it]

If you are happy with your pre-flop and flop play (which is questionable at best) then I think you played the rest of the hand fine. You are definitely way behind and probably drawing to 2 outs but you are getting almost 5-1 to call the turn.

Others have mentioned pre-flop so I will focus on the flop. With a bet and a raise you know that your stack is going in if you call here (and you are most likely way behind). You either need to push or fold because you aren't folding on the turn.

[thatpfunk]

do you play in these games? i was against jt and kt.

who cares, let this thread die, it is retarded.

[pho75]

You created this mess when you failed to reraise before the flop. The fact that CO is 90/44 make not reraising to ~$25 a BIG mistake IMO.

I would fold on the turn. One of those guys has a full house.

[pho75]

PF is where the problem lies. The rest is just a turkey shoot.

[thatpfunk]

i had no problem with the hand, i just found it interesting because it was played (:::gasp:::) a little differently.

[pho75]

LOL, Oh wait you're right, you played that hand perfectly. What masterful insight you have. Is that what you wanted to hear?

[pho75]

But you had an EASY situation before the flop and you blew it.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
i had no problem with the hand, i just found it interesting because it was played (:::gasp:::) a little differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the pissy mood? Nothing in this hand is interesting. If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall. Your hand basically plays like bottom set here. If you'd call with bottom set (and I'm about 100% certain you would), you call with KK.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
do you play in these games? i was against jt and kt.

who cares, let this thread die, it is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only got about 100K hands at NL$100 and NL$200 so maybe I need a little practice. You gambled and won. Good for you. Please consider that every player at NL$100 might not be a complete retard.

[pho75]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never though about it that way.

[thatpfunk]

practicing hand reading might be a good idea. you think someone with either 2 pair or a set smoothcalled this flop after a bet (possible) and then smoothcalled again after it had been raised by a maniac and called (not that likely). AND THEN after all that trickiness he open pushed the turn facing a nearly guaranteed bet w/ the great possibility of trapping the SB AFTER he filled up and is no longer worried about draws (completely absurd).

but you have 100k hands, sorry. ill just keep gambling.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]

Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

If both players are that bad, you made a pretty big mistake by not reraising preflop.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]


Why the pissy mood? Nothing in this hand is interesting. If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall. Your hand basically plays like bottom set here. If you'd call with bottom set (and I'm about 100% certain you would), you call with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can this hand be completely uninteresting yet every response in the thread disagrees with every decision? somewhat contradictory, no?

pissy? i dunno. i just get annoyed in this forum because i only post hands that i play differently (maybe thats the problem since they are often based on table context) and every response is "OMG you need to do X" w/ X=standard play.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
practicing hand reading might be a good idea. you think someone with either 2 pair or a set smoothcalled this flop after a bet (possible) and then smoothcalled again after it had been raised by a maniac and called (not that likely). AND THEN after all that trickiness he open pushed the turn facing a nearly guaranteed bet w/ the great possibility of trapping the SB AFTER he filled up and is no longer worried about draws (completely absurd).

but you have 100k hands, sorry. ill just keep gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO was the pre-flop raiser, raised the flop then called a turn push from an idiot. How is it impossible to think he doesn't have KK beat most of the time????

Again, congratulations on the hand. Folding would have been a huge mistake. If you ask for comments and someone provides you with constructive criticism either say thanks or make a logical counter argument. Insults are childish.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

If both players are that bad, you made a pretty big mistake by not reraising preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe its just me, but i win next to zero big pots after putting in a 2nd raise pf (unless it happens to be AA v KK and we know a 40pfr's range is way bigger than simply big pps). even maniacs know that a reraise = a big hand in this game. the majority of the time i reraise in this situation i lead the flop and its folded. is the deception worth the risk? i dont mind it and am perfectly comfortable with it.

once again, maybe its just me.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
i just get annoyed in this forum because i only post hands that i play differently (maybe thats the problem since they are often based on table context) and every response is "OMG you need to do X" w/ X=standard play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without specific reads or giving us your plan of attack how do expect to get anything other than ABC advice? Limping AA or KK is fine if you have a reason and a plan. Your OP stated nothing specific so everyone assumed (wrongly) that you had no plan.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Why the pissy mood? Nothing in this hand is interesting. If you're going to play KK this way on the early streets, the turn is an instacall. Your hand basically plays like bottom set here. If you'd call with bottom set (and I'm about 100% certain you would), you call with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

how can this hand be completely uninteresting yet every response in the thread disagrees with every decision? somewhat contradictory, no?

pissy? i dunno. i just get annoyed in this forum because i only post hands that i play differently (maybe thats the problem since they are often based on table context) and every response is "OMG you need to do X" w/ X=standard play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You tell me what's interesting about it then. You're irritated that people are focused on the preflop and flop play. That's the part that's nonstandard (which some might equate with interest?). On a T424 board where I haven't let anybody know I have a hand as strong as KK and I'm against horrible players, I'm more than happy to get both all in against both of them expecting an overpair from one and TPGK from the other. Yes, you'll run into AA and/or a set sometimes but big deal; most of the time you don't.

[GrunchCan]

So did you post this hand becasue you wanted advice or feedback? If you're unwilling to acccept the possibility that "unorthodox" does not necesarrily mean "advanced but correct" and that you misplayed this hand, then why ask for feedback that you won't accept?

If you didn't post this becasue you wanted advice, then why didn't you put "no content" in the title?

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]

CO was the pre-flop raiser, raised the flop then called a turn push from an idiot. How is it impossible to think he doesn't have KK beat most of the time????

[/ QUOTE ]

are you freaking serious? he raises 44% of the time. that is half of his hands. i am worried about being behind a tiny fraction of hands. he raised the flop after a weak lead/stab, his range is still gigantic (not to mention the fact that when the board pairs and i am now ahead of the times he flopped a random 2pr). there is a WAY higher percentage of hands that i am ahead of than behind.

[thatpfunk]

it was posted because i was chatting with someone and they said they would never make the turn call and i thought it was kind of automatic.

also, i shouldn't have said that i find the flop play completely uninteresting, that was a mistake. i think CRing rather than leading is pretty viable as is pushing after the maniac raises (although i dont think i get paid as often w/ either of those)

[GrunchCan]

Based on the reasoning and method you played preflop &amp; flop, I agree the turn call is automatic. You were trying to induce action. You got that action. Why wouldn't you call?

It would probably be +EV for you to not be so incindiary when you post here, however. People are just trying to help your game.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I don't understand preflop or flop. Turn I also don't get. I like the river, though, assuming you didn't somehow manage to fold once all in.

Edit: Just to clarify - I am tickled pink to get all-in on the turn against both guys here on this board. They will both have a ten or worse a large percentage of the time. But I don't think your line is the best way to do that. And you give up a lot when they completely miss the flop by not re-raising preflop.

[troymclur]

[ QUOTE ]
do you play in these games? i was against jt and kt.

who cares, let this thread die, it is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for future reference, if you want to let us in on why you made the unorthodox play (such as more comprehensive reads on the players and the table in general) then you probably wouldn't get so much attention on the PF play.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
"omg, i gave up some equity pf because i know it would kill/severely limit my action against the moron postflop" oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

you wanted action, you got action, you have to call...i think you're beat here a lot though.

EDIT: lol, i just saw that grunch wrote pretty much the same thing.

[Guin]

I believe that I would have been reraising into this type of player with a lot of hands other than AA or KK. Your unorthodox play wasn't to get the maniac but to get the other player who was also out to stack him. No way most players go all in with TPGK at that level. If so then I really need to start playing 6 max.

My thoughts would be that you could have reraised pre flop without AA or KK against this player... also pushing flop is the only thing you should do since a flush draw is out there and a large enough % of your stack is already being committed with a call to justify a push. If they are both bad then they should attempt to draw but they are at least paying the price.

Glad it worked out this time... when I get home I should post a hand of mine from last night KK vs. 104s... KK hits set and trys to slowplay... I bet like a madman with my draw and hit on river and double up.

Guin

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I really need to start playing 6 max.


[/ QUOTE ]

[thatpfunk]

you dont? why not?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Because the way you played it preflop I would just lead out for the pot on the flop and then push the turn. These guys love to call, but can't be relied upon to raise and your line will not get the money in fast enough to prevent scare cards from killing your hand/action. And I would re-raise preflop because more often than not they will both miss the flop completely instead of both hitting top pair.

[Ghazban]

TWP-- just to clarify, are you saying you would never use OP's line or that its not optimal? I don't think its optimal but I don't think its bad as a once-in-a-while play.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.

[thatpfunk]

whoops, sorry i was questioning why in the world you don't play 6max when it is an easier, more profitable game (i think thats the general consensus)

and regarding your comments: more often than not i do reraise PF. on the flop the maniac had been folding (in general) to PSBs yet would get cute if he "sensed weakness." i also think that i would put CRing the guaranteed cont bet ahead of leadng for PSB, but i thought i could tie the avg-bad player in for my weak lead. i considered pushing the flop when it got back to me but i held the Ks and was fairly certain that the avg bad player would have raised with most Axs hands. at the time i thought it was worth the risk, although scarecards are a very distinct possibility.

(i cant say im very good at expressing all my thoughts that go into each action, uff)

[TheWorstPlayer]

Oh, I only play 6max. My quote was a FYP. And your line worked in this spot, so I can't say that it was bad when I'm sitting on the sidelines. But from just the info provided in your OP, I think my line is better.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. From a player development standpoint, its good to take an occasional unorthodox line if only to give yourself experience with the situations that follow it even if it is less optimal from both an immediate EV and metagame standpoint to do so. It'll save money later when the player takes a non-standard line against smarter players in a bigger game.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. From a player development standpoint, its good to take an occasional unorthodox line if only to give yourself experience with the situations that follow it even if it is less optimal from both an immediate EV and metagame standpoint to do so. It'll save money later when the player takes a non-standard line against smarter players in a bigger game.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reply is logical and makes sense theoretically. It is wrong though.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. From a player development standpoint, its good to take an occasional unorthodox line if only to give yourself experience with the situations that follow it even if it is less optimal from both an immediate EV and metagame standpoint to do so. It'll save money later when the player takes a non-standard line against smarter players in a bigger game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Ghaz. Plus mixing it up on one play might not make the most on that specific hand, but it does pay dividends over the course of the session by making your opponents make mistakes on future hands. A confused opponent is a profitable opponent. It doesn't make sense to mix it up against all opponents, becasue many won't notice or react in a +EV way. But to say that nobody will react in an +EV way is wrong. It's not like they aren't trying to win.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. From a player development standpoint, its good to take an occasional unorthodox line if only to give yourself experience with the situations that follow it even if it is less optimal from both an immediate EV and metagame standpoint to do so. It'll save money later when the player takes a non-standard line against smarter players in a bigger game.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does practicing less than optimal play help you save money? I understand practicing LAG play at a lower limit to gain experience, but shouldn't every play you make be optimal based upon the circumstance?

Even some metagame considerations could be considered unorthodox, but their goal is to create an optimal future situation.

[troymclur]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. From a player development standpoint, its good to take an occasional unorthodox line if only to give yourself experience with the situations that follow it even if it is less optimal from both an immediate EV and metagame standpoint to do so. It'll save money later when the player takes a non-standard line against smarter players in a bigger game.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reply is logical and makes sense theoretically. It is wrong though.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit arrogant aren't we?

It also makes sense when you can play the table accordingly. Playing off peoples weaknesses while placing more trust in your reads can be hugely beneficial in making more money, and gets better along with the rise of ones own skill. Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

[ QUOTE ]
How does practicing less than optimal play help you save money? I understand practicing LAG play at a lower limit to gain experience, but shouldn't every play you make should be optimal based upon the circumstance?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but what qualifies as "optimal" is dependent on the table. Books and strategy and meta-games are all fine for giving you a good base, but you can't just take x idea and apply it across the board. You adjust to the table, and find the ways that extract the most money, specific to that grouping of players.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

If both players are that bad, you made a pretty big mistake by not reraising preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe its just me, but i win next to zero big pots after putting in a 2nd raise pf (unless it happens to be AA v KK and we know a 40pfr's range is way bigger than simply big pps). even maniacs know that a reraise = a big hand in this game. the majority of the time i reraise in this situation i lead the flop and its folded. is the deception worth the risk? i dont mind it and am perfectly comfortable with it.

once again, maybe its just me.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, I never play it this way, but then again, usually my table sees me re-raising with all sorts of garbage before this, so no one ever believes me. That said, I understand switching things up a little (although I'd be more likely to do this against good, not bad players).

That said, once the flop comes what are you waiting for, an Ace to come and kill your action? I say put in a big raise on the flop, and then get the rest in on the turn.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once in a while plays at NL100 are like saying "I usually prefer $20 to $10 but once in a while I like to take the $10. Just to mix it up." I never take that line in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. From a player development standpoint, its good to take an occasional unorthodox line if only to give yourself experience with the situations that follow it even if it is less optimal from both an immediate EV and metagame standpoint to do so. It'll save money later when the player takes a non-standard line against smarter players in a bigger game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Ghaz. Plus mixing it up on one play might not make the most on that specific hand, but it does pay dividends over the course of the session by making your opponents make mistakes on future hands. A confused opponent is a profitable opponent. It doesn't make sense to mix it up against all opponents, becasue many won't notice or react in a +EV way. But to say that nobody will react in an +EV way is wrong. It's not like they aren't trying to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not what I meant. TWP asserts that these players don't pay any attention (well, he didn't say that, but I'm inferring it) so any direct metagame effect is negligent. My comment refers more to the overall development of the player in question.

Let me make up an extreme example:

Bob plays .01/.02 NL and always openpushes AA preflop from any position. Players are so atrocious in the game he plays that this method makes him buckets of money as he gets called by A4o, K7s, and J3o on a regular basis. A few months pass and Bob has the bankroll at last to move up in limits. Now when he pushes his AA, its no longer optimal as he isn't getting the loose calls he used to get. So he makes a smaller raise and somebody calls him. Now he's never played AA postflop in his entire life so he's very confused about how to procede. Except when he flops the nuts, he has decisions to make and he doesn't know how to make them because he's never been in the situation before. Had he played a few flops with AA in his old .01/.02 game, he wouldn't be so lost now.

I'm not talking about metagame for a session or even for a stake level. I'm talking about overall development as a player. Putting yourself in situations comparable to those you'll face at higher stakes is worthwhile in the sense that it gives you some familiarity with those situations. Obviously, they may play out very differently at the higher levels due to the nature of the opponents you'll face there but you'll at least have a place to start.

[GrunchCan]

I know you weren't talking about metagame considerations. My post was an additional consideration, not a refinemment of yours.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pusher (MP) is not crazy, just average bad. Overcaller (CO) is absolutely horrible (90/44) preflop, postflop, hell hes bad at sitting at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

If both players are that bad, you made a pretty big mistake by not reraising preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe its just me, but i win next to zero big pots after putting in a 2nd raise pf (unless it happens to be AA v KK and we know a 40pfr's range is way bigger than simply big pps). even maniacs know that a reraise = a big hand in this game. the majority of the time i reraise in this situation i lead the flop and its folded. is the deception worth the risk? i dont mind it and am perfectly comfortable with it.

once again, maybe its just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reraise with more than just AA-KK then against a 40% preflop raiser. Make the raise big enough so that villain is making a mistake by calling, and more importantly, don't give him implied odds by overplaying 1 pair after the flop. Not losing big pots is just as important as winning them. Just my 2 cents.

[beavens]

this has turned out to be a great thread - awesome read, guys.

[ QUOTE ]
A bit arrogant aren't we?

[/ QUOTE ]
indeed

[ QUOTE ]
Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in the post are we talking about top poker? I thought this was $100 6max.

[Riverman]

This hand would be alot easier to play if you had made it about 15 preflop.

As played, get all your money in on the flop

[Riverman]

"omg, i gave up some equity pf because i know it would kill/severely limit my action against the moron postflop"

How about "Yeah, playing KK with 3 other players who could have anything may not be an ideal situation"

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A bit arrogant aren't we?

[/ QUOTE ]
indeed

[ QUOTE ]
Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in the post are we talking about top poker? I thought this was $100 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was going to be my exact response. Thanks. And to Ghaz's last post, yes the guy will have to adjust and learn to play postflop at the higher level. But he will be adequately bankrolled for it and it's not like all of a sudden when you jump up a level, pushing AA preflop every time magically becomes -EV. It will just be somewhat less +EV than it used to be. And then he will see that he can make more money playing it slower. And he still won't be -EV with AA playing it slower. He will just be less +EV than he could be. And then he will make adjustments and get better at the higher level.

And all of this will make him more money than trying to play the way that beats the higher limits at the lower limits because his opponents won't be reacting the same way at the lower limits anyways so his 'practice' isn't really helping him anyways and all he is doing it keeping himself at lower limits longer than he has to and he is getting into the habit of justifying sub-optimal play as 'mixing it up' or 'practicing' or whatever and then he won't recognize when he's on subtle tilt and a lot of other bad things will happen.

I guarantee you that if you always make what you think is the optimal play for the specific hand that you are in without considering any other 'practice' consequences or 'mixing it up' consequences or 'deception' consequences, you will kill every level up to and including 5/10. And I really don't think Mr. .01/.02 NL will mind destroying the games for months and months and making many thousand dollars just because he never practiced playing AA postflop until he got up to .1/.25 NL or whatever.

Both Ghaz and Grunch are too smart for their own good.

[ QUOTE ]
If you re-raise pre flop that pretty much eliminates someone having A4 suited or something like that and makes this hand a lot easier to play on the other streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree. Play up those cowboys.

[Guin]

I said I don't play 6 max because I am still in the process of figuring out how to play TAG at a full table. 6 max I think is tougher to multi table (I usually only play 2 tables so I can really learn opponents). Soon as I get in my 50k hands between nl25 and nl50 I will probably switch over and try that out for a few hands.

Getting back to the hand ... I guess I understand your line but I guess from all the posts you see where we all see the risks taken to win this big pot.

Having experience of betting with scare cards on the board is very important so I understand where that development is also interesting... something I will have to work on as well.

Guin

[MikeSmith]

Reraise preflop, I think you got CO(QQ,JJ) beat but i have a good feeling MP is winning this hand. Lay it down and remember to reraise preflop and push on flop next time, you will not have to post here as often.

[troymclur]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A bit arrogant aren't we?

[/ QUOTE ]
indeed



[/ QUOTE ]

mmmmmm, indubitably.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in the post are we talking about top poker? I thought this was $100 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. I assumed people wanted to play and the absolute best and extract the absolute most they could (top poker) at any stakes.

[gol4pro]

I don't even want to know what was going through your head preflop.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A bit arrogant aren't we?

[/ QUOTE ]
indeed



[/ QUOTE ]

mmmmmm, indubitably.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your $20 v. $10 argument is ridiculous, top poker isn't binary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in the post are we talking about top poker? I thought this was $100 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. I assumed people wanted to play the absolute best they could (top poker) at any stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]
If by "top poker" you mean the most profitable poker for the specific hand that you are in, then re-raising preflop is top poker here without any question or qualification. He, and I, thought you meant "theoretically optimal poker" by "top poker" i.e. both players are playing at a high level.