215 blind battle.. what do YOU do?

[raptor517]

***** Hand History for Game 3113966853 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:17822512 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Tuesday, November 29, 02:42:36 EDT 2005
Table Table 67431 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: six2two10 ( $2174 )
Seat 2: Raptor_517 ( $1620 )
Seat 3: SOX1RED ( $1794 )
Seat 4: Pocket33Aces ( $1576 )
Seat 7: tutu22 ( $625 )
Seat 8: StraightPair ( $761 )
Seat 9: nutrol ( $565 )
Seat 10: PINGP3 ( $885 )
Trny:17822512 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Raptor_517 [ Qc 9h ]
>You have options at Table 68279 Table!.
SOX1RED folds.
Pocket33Aces folds.
tutu22 folds.
StraightPair folds.
six2two10: don't be scared pocket
nutrol folds.
PINGP3 folds.
six2two10: when I do call you're done
>You have options at Table 68864 Table!.
six2two10 raises [100].
Raptor_517 calls [75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 6h, 2c ]
six2two10 bets [200].
Pocket33Aces: that's what I'm scared about!!
>You have options at Table 68868 Table!.
Raptor_517 raises [525].
six2two10 raises [650].
Raptor_517 ?

what do YOU do here.. i dont want to hear anyone say fold preflop cuz they suck. thoughts on the raise on the flop are fine as well. holla

[bluef0x]

Well I fold. I don't buy the minraise preflop right away, but that 3rd bet on the flop just smells too much like an overpair and the minbet makes more sense.

Raise on the flop is fine, it's a standard CB and I would think he had two overcards. I believe his reraise

[Irieguy]

I don't think you have any folding equity on the flop.

When you first sent me this hand I was playing 9493720398402 tables and quickly thought I would raise less if I was planning on folding. Now, taking more time, I don't think I would raise the flop. I would smooth call.

If I did raise the flop, I would fold to a re-raise of less than all-in by him. His chip stack is the key. This is one of those very few times in a SNG where top pair is so unlikely to be ahead that you simply cannot call a trap-sized bet from a biggish stack.

But I would say the flop raise is a mistake... and you once told me you never make a mistake in a hand you post. Will you stand by the assertion that your flop raise was the best available choice? Cuz if you do you suck and I'm never talking to you again.

Irieguy

[jeffraider]

fold ship it

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
and you once told me you never make a mistake in a hand you post

[/ QUOTE ]

i said i never make a mistake on a response to a post. but ill use it here. i dont feel a flop raise is wrong at all. i found out exactly what i needed to. that he had an overpair. i got away from it and still had 1k chips to work with. i dont hate the flop raise at all. holla

Without a read here I like folding. I also would just call the flop though I can't put into words why I do so, it just feels right.

[bluef0x]

Why smoothcall? I don't play the $215's but the only thing that would justify a call is if at the level players DON'T fire a second barrel a majority of the time. That would mean if he checks- you're ahead and can hopefully take down the pot. If he bets again you lay it down and save yourself the 325 chips... but I find it hard to believe that a second CB wouldn't be made often.

The reraise on the flop told raptor exactly where he was at.. it'll be hard to judge where you are at playing the turn and river if you call, esp if another high card comes up.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont feel a flop raise is wrong at all. i found out exactly what i needed to... holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you had to spend 525 to find out? There was really no better option?

Ok, you have justified quitting school to all the yahoos on this forum. Going back appears to have hurt your intelligence.

Irieguy

[Eevee]

I feel like this is one of the few spots where a miniraise is good. I don't play the 215s, but I think at the lower levels, this is what applies: One option is to call here, which IMO, you get very little information. Once I call, opponent might fire another shell on a blank turn, in which case I would probably fold, but ill never know. The next option is to fold, which seems out of the question cus that is just too weak tight. Finally, you can raise. An all in raise is out of the question for obvious reasons, so it comes down to how much. IMO, a raise of 525 seems too much , as you can get the same info for a cheaper price. Lets say you miniraise: raise 200. So pot is at 650. Its 200 more for opponent to call. If he has AK, he has 8 outs, with 3:1 pot odds. He is screwin himself by calling a miniraise. So if he doesnt call, he will raise allin or fold. The all in seems a bit too aggressive, unless he has some read that you will fold most decent hands there. This is going to probly have to read dependent, but alot opponents, i suspect would probly fold to this miniraise if they had AK. If he has high pair, he is either going all in or reraising you, in which case this is an easy fold after the miniraise. Only thing i haven't really addressed is if he calls the miniraise with the high pair. /images/graemlins/confused.gif Are the the 215s different? Lemme know if this sounds like BS... it is 4:30 AM.

-EV

Current Music: none

[tigerite]

Reluctantly fold, with still having $1k left. You played it fine up til then though.

[tigerite]

By the way a smooth call is also a fine line, I don't hate the raise though. It would depend on the opponent. I was guessing you had some read on him to raise; if not, well, a call is probably the default option, to stop him re-raising on some kind of [censored] draw.. and for inducing bluff purposes.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont feel a flop raise is wrong at all. i found out exactly what i needed to... holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you had to spend 525 to find out? There was really no better option?

Ok, you have justified quitting school to all the yahoos on this forum. Going back appears to have hurt your intelligence.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

thats ok ill prolly quit again so i can start being smart once more. i think yer wrong btw. i think a raise is perfectly justified, and i feel it necessary to spend 525. holla

[bluef0x]

I agree with raptor as stated in my other post... and compared to your line it's spending 325 to be pretty darn certain where you're at right now. While calling only gives you some idea based on his next move.

Smooth call the flop.

The general consensus seems to be that you should raise to find out where you are. I don't see how you know anymore here than you do preflop.
I don't know how the villain got his chips but from the chat here he seems to like himself as does someone else at the table. How has he been playing and how would he react to your play ?
Your hand is at best fragile. Your best move if you wanted to play would be to call and reevaluate on the turn.
As for the villain, what could he have here. Has he been raising your blind consistently(ok you've only played a couple of orbits but has he been raising all game?) Big PP, I doubt. I'd say you're more likely to see 7's,8's or even A6o.

villain raises 100 - give me that blind
hero calls 75 - **** off
-flop-
villain raises 200 - give me the damn thing
hero raises 525 - you're full of ****
villain raises 650 - no you're full of it ?
hero fold - hmm,..okay

[ QUOTE ]
what do YOU do here.. i dont want to hear anyone say fold preflop cuz they suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well sorry, but I don't understand the call PF. Are you calling to hit a Q or 9 high flop here? Or to make a play whatever flops? Do you have some kind of read you don't explain in your OP? Also, it's pretty much a min-raise, often this is trapping not stealing, is this guy different?

Educate me here, I don't get it.

[citanul]

he's calling 75 into a pot of 175, with position, against a player who he probably knows a little something about. his intent is to call 75 into a pot of 175 in position, and then see what happens. then he'll play some poker. then he'll either win more chips, lose more chips, or stop losing chips as a loss of 75 additional chips on the hand.

[RobGW]

Enlightened one, please explain your better option.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

Fold. Your opponent raised preflop, bet and re-raised flop he must have a pocket pair. His small pf raise smells like AA or KK. I don't play $215's but when opponent keeps up aggressiveness he usually has something solid, IMO.

[citanul]

amongst the many other ways one could find out what's going on:

most players who raise preflop with a decent stack and are called by the blind will lead out on any flop. this flop seems ever better than usual as it's crap.

most players don't have the capability to fire the second barrel with nothing when called and frozen on the flop. calling will allow him to see another card and allow his opponent to make another move on the turn.

or: he could have reraised preflop for less to see if his opp was legit. there's nothing wrong with doing that, but there's also nothing wrong with seeing a flop every once in a while.

c

[DarrenX]

I like it. I'd love it on a 3-tone board, but here I just like it. Villian could be committing himself with an overpair OR a flush draw. However, I don't like giving a free card... yeah, good line.

[zambonidrivr]

I shove this. No question about it. I think you see smaller PP here enough to shove. I have got to believe top pair GK is good here. Sorry he flushed your ass on the river. NH

[tigerite]

He folded. Pushing is terrible.

[Double Down]

I'm a regular 215 player. so here's my input. I think you played it perfectly. Preflop, he says that line about not to be scared of his pocket pair. This sounds like something I'd type when I have a monster, cuz I'm using reverse reverse psychology, meaning that I want him to think that I have a medium pocket pair but am "intimidating him" into thinking I might have a big pair.

I'll make a similar move when someone raises me and I have kings or aces, I'll take a long time to "think" about it, and then I'll type in "i have a pair" while I'm deliberating, making it look like I have a small pair. And then I'll push.

Ok, so there's sign number 1 that he has a big pocket. Sign #2: He minraises. This would be a crappy move by him if he actually did have a pocket pair, UNLESS it's kings or aces. Even queens are too vulnerable to do this with.

So on the flop, we gotta find out right away if we're ahead.
Now, the preflop bettor bet the pot, as would be expected, it's a standard bet but on the high end. Which makes me think that he does have an overpair but maybe it is vulnerable, like QQ, and he doesn't want you checking behind, especially because you could have any 2, and he doesn't want to give you a chance to make some funky 2 pair or straight.

If you only minraise, he could call behind with a lot of hands you beat, such as AK, or with a monster like aces, so you still won't know where you stand. Your bet makes it look like you are committing yourself, and it doesn't look like a set because you'd probably just call or minraise with a set.
And his reraise majorly looks like a monster, because even though it's looking like you're committing yourself, he still doesn't want to lose you by pushing allin, although he's obviously committing both of you with that reraise.

To me, it majorly smells like queens or kings. You played it right Raptor. See you on the tables.

[tigerite]

He was talking to pocket, the player..

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont feel a flop raise is wrong at all. i found out exactly what i needed to... holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you had to spend 525 to find out? There was really no better option?

Ok, you have justified quitting school to all the yahoos on this forum. Going back appears to have hurt your intelligence.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

thats ok ill prolly quit again so i can start being smart once more. i think yer wrong btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good for you raptor (not the quitting part). What ever happened to education for its own sake? Who friggin cares if school ever makes you a dime? Knowing things is good.

***end hijack***

You probably could've accomplished the same thing by raising a little less, but otherwise, raise/fold looks about right.

Edit: I guess anything less is a min-raise. whatever.

[citanul]

semi-hijack:

not that i don't doubt that the average person at your campus sucks, or whatever, but college is valuable in a variety of ways beyond "because it'll make you money."

amongst them is "because you meet interesting people who you'll know forever."

think about how stupid sponger looks or looked or whatever when he dropped out and then was still living in the area where all the students lived and hanging out with them.

pretty stupid.

c, who thinks that raptor should seriously consider taking a year or semester off and travelling. maybe playing some cards to pay some bills, but not crazy hours.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
who thinks that raptor should seriously consider taking a year or semester off and travelling. maybe playing some cards to pay some bills, but not crazy hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

one of my good friends is buying a million dollar house in vegas. hes moving in march. he wants me to go with him. i may just do that, and spend the summer there, and possibly not return. holla

[lacky]

i think he should quit till he actually is interested enough to go to class. right now he's just taking up space and resources. waste of everyones time.

[citanul]

there's a big difference about what you learn about life travelling anywhere and what you learn about life living in vegas and playing poker.

who's the friend? pm if necessary.

c

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I shove this. No question about it. I think you see smaller PP here enough to shove. I have got to believe top pair GK is good here. Sorry he flushed your ass on the river. NH

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, yer kidding right. this is probably the worst advice i have ever heard, and i have never been guilty of a bad beat post. i folded on the flop after raising to 525. i found out exactly what i needed. that i was beat. badly. this is a 215 not an 11. holla

[citanul]

i'm thinking of banning the next 5 people who answer a post with "i'm sorry he sucked out on you" or "you clearly lost this hand or you wouldn't have posted it" in response to a question that CLEARLY has nothing to do with that kinds of results.

for instance, it was pretty clear to everyone else that raptor folded here. thus, that he never saw his opponent hit a flush, etc.

c

[IdiotVig]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, yer kidding right. this is probably the worst advice i have ever heard, and i have never been guilty of a bad beat post. i folded on the flop after raising to 525. i found out exactly what i needed. that i was beat. badly. this is a 215 not an 11. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

So, just to make sure we get you right -- no one at a 215 is capable of firing a third barrel on air? Or just on this particular hand, on this particular kind of action?

Or does the he-must-be-playing-back-at-me-so-i'll-play-back-at-him mentality exist only in screenplays and the minds of deranged lunatics?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
So, just to make sure we get you right -- no one at a 215 is capable of firing a third barrel on air? Or just on this particular hand, on this particular kind of action?

[/ QUOTE ]

the chance that anyone "fires the third barrel on air" as you say, in this spot, in this fashion, is incredibly unlikely.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm thinking of banning everyone from now on who answer a post with "i'm sorry he sucked out on you" or "you clearly lost this hand or you wouldn't have posted it" in response to a question that CLEARLY has nothing to do with that kinds of results.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
So, just to make sure we get you right -- no one at a 215 is capable of firing a third barrel on air? Or just on this particular hand, on this particular kind of action?

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt really 'firing the third barrel'. that would be betting, getting called, betting the turn, getting called, then betting hte river. he min reraised me. thats quite a bit different. id venture to guess, hes about 99.5% to have me beat. holla

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, just to make sure we get you right -- no one at a 215 is capable of firing a third barrel on air? Or just on this particular hand, on this particular kind of action?

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt really 'firing the third barrel'. that would be betting, getting called, betting the turn, getting called, then betting hte river. he min reraised me. thats quite a bit different. id venture to guess, hes about 99.5% to have me beat. holla

[/ QUOTE ]Do I have to get to the $215s before the other guys recognize how strong this sequence is?

(Of course, I have to get well past my buy-in level before the BB is calling with Q9.)

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, just to make sure we get you right -- no one at a 215 is capable of firing a third barrel on air? Or just on this particular hand, on this particular kind of action?

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt really 'firing the third barrel'. that would be betting, getting called, betting the turn, getting called, then betting hte river. he min reraised me. thats quite a bit different. id venture to guess, hes about 99.5% to have me beat. holla

[/ QUOTE ]Do I have to get to the $215s before the other guys recognize how strong this sequence is?

(Of course, I have to get well past my buy-in level before the BB is calling with Q9.)

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is the case, you should be making it 125 every single time its folded to you. period, the end. i raise a lot of hands in the blinds, even in the early levels. people dont play well heads up, and you can make a lot of chips. holla

[citanul]

you should clearly go find whatever stakes zamboni is playing and crush him there.

and yes, at many, many games it makes sense to raise small (at least) at every time it's folded to you in the sb. people play horribly.

fwiw, there's a ton of players at every stakes who will lose all their chips in raptor's spot (if they saw the flop) because they will push over the bet on the flop (the first one).

c

[SCfuji]

hey raptor i have a question

why raise 325 on top of his 200. i understand that this is a 215 but this guy plays like a 22er. a miniraise and his minireraise on top of that should tell you the same info right? but i guess this sort of forces you to call his minireraise. maybe your raise is better after all.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
hey raptor i have a question

why raise 325 on top of his 200. i understand that this is a 215 but this guy plays like a 22er. a miniraise and his minireraise on top of that should tell you the same info right? but i guess this sort of forces you to call his minireraise. maybe your raise is better after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have some reason to believe that?

[SCfuji]

hey citamod

is it a regular (most common) betting pattern of 215ers to miniraise pf and mini reraise a flop raise? i just see this a bunch at the lower levels so i just associated it with the 22 level. i guess i meant to say that the villain played bet his hand like a 22er (for this hand) but if he bets all his hands this way it obviously changes things. i guess im just not big on the mini betting/raising - is it something i should incorporate into my game? my other post was worded incorrectly, my mistake.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
hey citamod

is it a regular (most common) betting pattern of 215ers to miniraise pf and mini reraise a flop raise? i just see this a bunch at the lower levels so i just associated it with the 22 level. i guess i meant to say that the villain played bet his hand like a 22er (for this hand) but if he bets all his hands this way it obviously changes things. i guess im just not big on the mini betting/raising - is it something i should incorporate into my game? my other post was worded incorrectly, my mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) he didn't "miniraise" he raised to 125 out of the small blind at 25/50.
2) let's go over the play for a second, as people seem to be getting confused i think

he raised preflop and got called.

the flop came.

he bet.

his bet was 200 in to a pot of 250.

his opponent raised.

his opponent raised 325 more, making it 325 to call, with 975 in the pot, and just about 975 behind.

it was then his turn to act again.

he thought.

his thought went:

i have this guy beat.

what's the thing i can do that will get the most chips on average out of him.

he made a decision about what that line was.

then he did it.

at several points in this analysis, the average 22s player comes to different decisions than the average 215s player. and sometimes either player will come up with the same line, with the same hand.

sometimes, they'll push over the flop raise, both of them.

more likely though to be the difference is the "i have him beat" being correct in one spot and incorrect in the other.

c

[SCfuji]

interesting. thanks for letting me milk a good lesson out of you citamod /images/graemlins/smile.gif. ill stop responding to threads after ive been awake for a day.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]


one of my good friends is buying a million dollar house in vegas. hes moving in march. he wants me to go with him. i may just do that, and spend the summer there, and possibly not return. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo-effin-yah!

[ilya]

why are you so confident that he has you beat after the min-re-raise? if he knows you, might he not expand his min-re-raising range to include 78, flush draws, hands like J9, perhaps even hands like AcJd?

in general i think that's a tough spot cos on the one hand a lot of turns are bad for your hand, but on the other hand a raise on the flop really looks like a bluff since it should be obvious to him that you're likely to think that he missed the flop. i think on the whole i agree with irie that a call is better...u figure to have a lot of real+bluff outs if you're behind, there's a fair chance you'll be re-raised by a worse hand if u raise now, and a Queen on the turn might get him to give u lots of chips with hands he would fold to the flop raise, or semibluff-reraise forcing u to fold.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont feel a flop raise is wrong at all. i found out exactly what i needed to... holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you had to spend 525 to find out? There was really no better option?

Ok, you have justified quitting school to all the yahoos on this forum. Going back appears to have hurt your intelligence.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

thats ok ill prolly quit again so i can start being smart once more. i think yer wrong btw. i think a raise is perfectly justified, and i feel it necessary to spend 525. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

dude you're smart just transfer to a good school like Columbia or something, that way you can actually enjoy college cos there'll be plenty of people around who are as smart or smarter than you. even if you skip a lot of classes you'll still learn a lot in that setting. plus you'll be able to earn your tuition at my home game.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
why are you so confident that he has you beat after the min-re-raise? if he knows you, might he not expand his min-re-raising range to include 78, flush draws, hands like J9, perhaps even hands like AcJd?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are all within the "realm of possibility". However, the issue is more whether these occur enough to warrant a call or more. Raptor said he is beat 99.5% of the time here. Honestly, I don't think thats too far off given the PF raise and ~3/4 pot bet and minraise of a raise. sure, once in awhile someone will say "I am goin go rep a monster here from start to finish against the other bigstack, even if I go broke trying". Won't happen enough of the time though.

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
dude you're smart just transfer to a good school like Columbia or something, that way you can actually enjoy college cos there'll be plenty of people around who are as smart or smarter than you. even if you skip a lot of classes you'll still learn a lot in that setting. plus you'll be able to earn your tuition at my home game

[/ QUOTE ]

OH /images/graemlins/laugh.gif this ought to work out just great!...Hangout with a "F'ing terrorist" & skip a bunch of classes...Maybe get to be known as "SkipperRaptorSFB" /images/graemlins/grin.gif