AJ - How about this line?

[scotty34]

Button is a pretty LAG 40/20 player
CO is slightly looser and slightly less aggressive

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

I believe I am ahead of a good chunk of the Buttons raising range here. However, I chose not to 3-bet PF for a few reasons. I am OOP against two players who are certainly not known for their folding talents. Also, by 3-betting PF I build a big pot making them even more inclined to call.

My plan here was to C/R almost any reasonably safe flop, and of course any one including TPTK or TPGK. By taking this line instead I can face CO with 2 cold and give him a much better reason to fold. Also, if he calls 2 cold, I can be much more certain where I am sitting with different flops.

What do you think?

It's close in my mind. By c/r-ing you stop the button from bluffing in order to possibly fold the CO. If you just call, he'll keep bluffing K-high.

I'm not sure which is best because I don't know CO's range. If you think a PP is likely and he might fold it, I like your play. Otherwise, ehh.

[bobman0330]

I keep reading people expressing reluctance to 3-bet from the blinds because their opponents won't fold. But then they go nuts trying to take down very small pots like this one. If you want to avoid swelling the pot so that your opponents make FToP mistakes, that's fine, but, IMO, you need to give them a chance to make those mistakes, and doing that doesn't involve facing them with two cold.

In this spot, I would lead out. CO isn't folding a T or a PP &gt; 55 to a c/r, and you have a lot of his other holdings dominated, so he's calling too frequently anyways. Ditto the button, except you probably have more of his hands dominated.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
But then they go nuts trying to take down very small pots like this one

[/ QUOTE ]

I am C/R'ing to protect what I feel has a high chance of being the best hand, and possibly fold out a couple hands that are actually ahead of mine. I would not consider this 'going nuts.'


[ QUOTE ]
In this spot, I would lead out. CO isn't folding a T or a PP &gt; 55 to a c/r, and you have a lot of his other holdings dominated, so he's calling too frequently anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't going to fold anything if I just lead out, and would be even less inclined to fold if I 3-bet and lead out. If I 3-bet and lead, it would be correct for him to call with 89 or something along those lines.

Of course he is not going to fold a PP &gt; 55 or a T to a C/R, but he is not folding them any other way either. With a C/R, he still may call 2 cold with dominated hands such as A9.

I believe my line gives me the best chance of winning the pot, and I can also stop putting in bets when I am behind.

[Weatherhead03]

Given the read of the CO I like the call PF. If he was less loose and could fold PF then I would 3-bet for sure as you are more than likely ahead of Button.

After the flop came rags for the most part I like the raise. You will hopefully knock out the CO and will most likely have a fair amount of folding equity on the turn if it brings another blank....Correct me if my thinking is flawed.

[Redd]

What sort of range do you put BB on that you feel you're regularly ahead of? I see KQ/QJ/KJ/A9 that you beat and AK/AQ/AT/KT/QTs/JTs/AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/88/77/66/55 that you're behind. Plus there's the chance that one or both of you is behind CO at this point.

It seems like given the amount of value it costs you when you fail (and the small pot size when you succeed) doesn't justify the chances that you'll make either of these loose players make an incorrect fold.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
What sort of range do you put BB on that you feel you're regularly ahead of? I see KQ/QJ/KJ/A9 that you beat and AK/AQ/AT/KT/QTs/JTs/AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/88/77/66/55 that you're behind. Plus there's the chance that one or both of you is behind CO at this point.


[/ QUOTE ]

This guy is a 40/20 LAG. I would not be surprised in the least to see him flip over A2s, A4o, K9o or 89s.

CO plays over 50% of his hands. Sure there is a chance he has a T or PP or maybe even a 2/5, but there is a far greater chance that he does not.

You're absolutely right, I could be behind, but I believe I am ahead of both of their 'ranges.' Barring an A or J however, the chance of being ahead of both of their ranges is significantly reduced if both go to showdown.

[jba]

I like the play, very dry board, good chance you are ahead.

I considered all of your reasons for not 3betting PF, but I would definitely still pull the trigger in the heat of battle.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
But then they go nuts trying to take down very small pots like this one



I am C/R'ing to protect what I feel has a high chance of being the best hand, and possibly fold out a couple hands that are actually ahead of mine. I would not consider this 'going nuts.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether that line is correct or not, (most others agree, I think it's close), I think philosophically you're approaching the pot in the wrong way. Your opponents play too loose. You chose not to 3-bet preflop to keep the pot small. Now you're trying to get your opponents to make FToP incorrect folds! You've set everything up so it would be correct for them to fold, now you're trying to force them to do so. It's like inducing a bluff, then folding to it.

You keep talking about getting CO to fold and trying to improve your chances of winning this pot. But you almost always want CO in, except in the parlay of him having you beat and you having the button beat, and him having you beat by a small hand he'll fold to a c/r. Winning the pot would be nice, but it's small. I think in situations like this, your focus should be on making money on the flop and turn, not taking down a 6 SB pot.

I think it works well against this type of LAG. My question now is, what is our plan for the turn and river?

reverse domination would be bad tho

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it works well against this type of LAG. My question now is, what is our plan for the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

The plan for the turn and river really depend on the results of the flop play and how the flop and turn come up. In this case, CO folded the flop, a brick hit the turn, a K hit the river. I plan to check call and he checks behind with Q9s and MHIG.

In another scenario, if CO cold-called and a K hit the turn, I would strongly consider check-folding.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
But then they go nuts trying to take down very small pots like this one



I am C/R'ing to protect what I feel has a high chance of being the best hand, and possibly fold out a couple hands that are actually ahead of mine. I would not consider this 'going nuts.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether that line is correct or not, (most others agree, I think it's close), I think philosophically you're approaching the pot in the wrong way. Your opponents play too loose. You chose not to 3-bet preflop to keep the pot small. Now you're trying to get your opponents to make FToP incorrect folds! You've set everything up so it would be correct for them to fold, now you're trying to force them to do so. It's like inducing a bluff, then folding to it.

You keep talking about getting CO to fold and trying to improve your chances of winning this pot. But you almost always want CO in, except in the parlay of him having you beat and you having the button beat, and him having you beat by a small hand he'll fold to a c/r. Winning the pot would be nice, but it's small. I think in situations like this, your focus should be on making money on the flop and turn, not taking down a 6 SB pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, when I first posted, I thought the 'philosophical approach' was good enough to justify it. Basically by either 3-betting PF and leading the flop, or calling PF and C/R'ing the turn, both the Button and I put in the same number of bets in most cases. The difference in terms of pot size depends on how much the CO likes his hand. I thought my chance of winning the pot UI greatly improves with CO out of the hand before showdown, and I'm not sure if I really want him 'padding the pot' with 89 given that it could cost me the whole pot. I'm not sure if this is correct for EV thinking.

The proper way to look at it in terms of EV would be to do a mathematical analysis of both situations. Take the approximate hand ranges for both players, and split their hand ranges into likely actions for each scenario by percentages. Then we must check and see how often I am behind, how often they improve, how often I improve etc. However, this calculation appears extremely long and complicated - anyone want to give it a try. If not, I will have to agree that it is probably quite close, and for now I still think I like it.

[thesharpie]

If you're not 3 betting PF, I like it.

[ QUOTE ]
Board: 5s Th 2d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 30.1001 % [ 00.29 00.01 ] { AsJh }
Hand 2: 36.4095 % [ 00.35 00.01 ] { AA-33, AKs-A2s, KQs-K7s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, AKo-A5o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q9o, JTo }
Hand 3: 33.4904 % [ 00.33 00.00 ] { random }

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[ QUOTE ]
Board: 5s Th 2d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 51.1502 % [ 00.49 00.02 ] { AsJh }
Hand 2: 48.8498 % [ 00.47 00.02 ] { AA-33, AKs-A2s, KQs-K7s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, AKo-A5o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q9o, JTo }

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously there's more to it than this, and hopefully someone will dig into the complex analysis, but it looks good to me.