Ugly Postflop Situation w/ JJ ($109)

[MSUcougar]

Seat 7: MSUcougar ( $960 )
Seat 1: yoyome2005 ( $1000 )
Seat 8: azpokerwhore ( $975 )
Seat 2: IamURnot ( $1120 )
Seat 5: Rumsfeld_08 ( $775 )
Seat 9: chopperRick ( $625 )
Seat 10: jrg48 ( $1375 )
Seat 3: Ranto ( $960 )
Seat 6: BuillGates ( $1030 )
Seat 4: Gauteng ( $1180 )
Trny:17816931 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to MSUcougar [ Jd Js ]
BuillGates folds.
MSUcougar raises [95].
azpokerwhore folds.
chopperRick folds.
jrg48 calls [95].
yoyome2005 folds.
IamURnot folds.
Ranto folds.
Gauteng calls [80].
Rumsfeld_08 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 9d, 5h ] (POT 300)
Gauteng checks.
MSUcougar bets [175].
jrg48 raises [350].
Gauteng calls [350].
MSUcougar ????

Comments on PF and flop action are welcome but I'm most curious about how you handle the 2nd flop decision...

I have 690 behind...

No reads as it's early and I don't recognize either villain...

[bluefeet]

I'm going broke here - push. (PF is fine IMO)

[AlphaWice]

this is a bit tough, because there's no flush draw. I think its correct to fold, but I am not a high limit player.

My thinking is based on Gautengs play. He calls after two callers, then checks the flop. After a bet and a raise, he flat calls. This screams better than TPTK to me, which is all you are beating. (It can't be a bluff, because there isn't any room for him to push the turn and expect any FE anyways.) Fold.

[Jman28]

I raise to t80, but whatev. The hand is played fine. I push now. 88 or A9 loves to minraise here, thinking you have overcards. I'm not really sure why. Caller could have TT, 88, 77, A9.

Remember that they are is twice as likely to have TT, 88, or 77 on this board than a set (ignoring what he would/wouldn't raise/call with).

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going broke here - push. (PF is fine IMO)

[/ QUOTE ]

Too much money. Too good a hand. But I'm not thrilled.

[MSUcougar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going broke here - push. (PF is fine IMO)

[/ QUOTE ]

Too much money. Too good a hand. But I'm not thrilled.

[/ QUOTE ]
I definitely push this most of the time... but I just couldn't see how I had both hands beat here... if SB doesn't cold call the minraise I push for sure...

[tigerite]

Push, I'm afraid, even though you probably lost to a set, otherwise you'd not have posted it..

[aujoz]

push, lose to some weird hand (or a slow played big pair), and reload.

I just hate the overcall from the blind. I feel sick but can't see folding considering the pot and your stack sizes. One encouraging aspect is that you don't recognize either villain which to me makes it more likely that they're donks.

So push.

[tigerite]

I've never seen either of those players at the $109s, but my sample size is miniscule, so meh. I may have at the $55s. Not sure, as my PT database is on the home pc.

[durron597]

What could the BB possibly be overcalling with on such a drawless board? Gutshot + pp? 98? I dunno, I think I would have to fold at a 109......

[tigerite]

There are plenty donks at the 109s. Just last night I had TT in SB, a raise from the button (which means absolutely anything), I re-raise, flop 965, I bet out, he raises, I call with the intention of pushing any turn (as the pot is now 1k, and I have 400 left behind).. turn is an A (worst and best card at the same time, I may get him to fold JJ and QQ, but if he had A9 he's calling a push on the flop anyway), so I push, he tanks for 5 seconds and calls with, erm, 67s

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty donks at the 109s. Just last night I had TT in SB, a raise from the button (which means absolutely anything), I re-raise, flop 965, I bet out, he raises, I call with the intention of pushing any turn (as the pot is now 1k, and I have 400 left behind).. turn is an A (worst and best card at the same time, I may get him to fold JJ and QQ, but if he had A9 he's calling a push on the flop anyway), so I push, he tanks for 5 seconds and calls with, erm, 67s

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guarantee you, if you ever see me overcall like that, I have 55 at worst.

[tigerite]

Sure, but you're a good player, I just mean there are plenty of idiots out there too, both at $55 and $109 (and I suspect $215 too).. just less of them than at the $11s or what not.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
What could the BB possibly be overcalling with on such a drawless board? Gutshot + pp? 98? I dunno, I think I would have to fold at a 109......

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys give way too much credit to players at the 109's. I've been saying this for the past 6 months. Doesn't mean I'm not worried, I just feel there is this sentiment that everyone at the 109's is good. They're almost all quite bad. By the way, I think a bad player has TP alot of the time here or one of those combos you alluded to. And yes, we lose to a set or straight a bunch.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Push, I'm afraid, even though you probably lost to a set, otherwise you'd not have posted it..

[/ QUOTE ]

stop saying that. particularly to players as good and intelligent as MSU. it makes you sound like a moron.

c

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, but you're a good player, I just mean there are plenty of idiots out there too, both at $55 and $109 (and I suspect $215 too).. just less of them than at the $11s or what not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but there's 3 people in this hand, not 2.

I fold this and at a 109, I don't think it's close. It is so not close that I only have to think about 5 more seconds to fold aces. If you put the coldcaller on a 9 or something, you will wind up busting out a lot more than you should*.

*also, in the rare case he only has a draw, he still has 33% equity, and the minraiser sometimes has you beat, too...in reality you are somewhat ahead/way behind and your hand should be turbomucked.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
What could the BB possibly be overcalling with on such a drawless board? Gutshot + pp? 98? I dunno, I think I would have to fold at a 109......

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I fold this and at a 109, I don't think it's close. It is so not close that I only have to think about 5 more seconds to fold aces. If you put the coldcaller on a 9 or something, you will wind up busting out a lot more than you should*.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't fold Aces here, because I've seen QQ/KK "slowplayed" so often. I include them in the BB's range.

JJ is a fold here, and I do think it's a tough spot, but it's gotta go in the muck. You beat exactly one hand BB could have (TT) and even then I think 65, 87, 55, 66, 99 are all much more common.

Edit: Let's put it another way. You raised in EP. Then you bet the flop, which represents an overpair. You could be c-betting with unpaired overs. Then, MP minraises you, which represents "I can beat your overpair and I don't mind giving a free card." Then the BB coldcalls, which means "I think I can beat both of your overpairs and I want to keep you in". The stacks are not really deep enough for the BB to make this with air and expect to take it away on a later street... I have to give an unknown BB who hasn't gotten out of line credit for the ability to fold A9 here in a $109.

[microbet]

Usually I would assume one unknown player is bad, but not two. I would fold unless they were proven donks.

[citanul]

so a lot of people advocate folding here. that's fine. sure.

and clearly, when checked to here, betting is cool.

my question is:

1) how many handed to the flop on a flop such as this one would you check utg with JJ in this spot, because if you're beat you're probably going to hear about it anyway without having to put in more chips at all?
2) x handed in what positions y to act post flop do you check?

if any.

c

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never seen either of those players at the $109s, but my sample size is miniscule, so meh. I may have at the $55s. Not sure, as my PT database is on the home pc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. No record of these two at all.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't fold Aces here, because I've seen QQ/KK "slowplayed" so often. I include them in the BB's range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's why it takes 5 more seconds. You don't have odds vs. that range with or without the relatively unlikely 2 extra hands you beat included in it.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
so a lot of people advocate folding here. that's fine. sure.

and clearly, when checked to here, betting is cool.

my question is:

1) how many handed to the flop on a flop such as this one would you check utg with JJ in this spot, because if you're beat you're probably going to hear about it anyway without having to put in more chips at all?
2) x handed in what positions y to act post flop do you check?

if any.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

Your only going to know your beat when two(or more) players show enough interest to make it clear. If one player bets, you are still going to spend some money finding out if you are beat. I don't think the "two or more big hands scenario" happens often enough with any number of players to justify the risk of getting beat by a free turn. If I check the flop here it is with the intention of check-raising(and I am damned sure someone will bet). Finding out I'm beat before I raise is a bonus.

I don't think an X and Y answer is possible here. The level of aggression of the players is more important than the number of players. If I know the last player to act will take a shot at almost any checked around flop I may check here. I think it is a play better suited to MTT.

[MSUcougar]

I did end up folding this hand...

Turn was the Kc (completing rainbow)... Gauteng checked and quickly folded to jrg's push so I didn't get to see a showdown...

I don't see how the K could've helped jrg at all... I put him on AA-TT or a set... and who knows what Gauteng had... apparently he's just a donk.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
1) how many handed to the flop on a flop such as this one would you check utg with JJ in this spot, because if you're beat you're probably going to hear about it anyway without having to put in more chips at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Player dependent on whether c/raise or not. You are the one with betting impetus and all. As far as checking with the thought of it checking through, I would do that if 15-20 people saw the flop.