QQ overcards... coordinated flop

Pacific $10NL, 05/10 blinds

Hero is down to $15
Villain has about $20

Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif
limps to hero in MP, raises to $1.50
2 callers

Flop ($5ish):
J/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero leads for $5
MP2 puts me all in
MP3 folds

Hero?

about a $9 call here into about a $20 pot.



(Hero called)

MP2 shows J9 and wins w/ 2 pair

[Godfather80]

Here I would call. You'll get shown all kinds of crap that you're ahead of: flush draws, straight draws, single pairs, single pair backdoor flush draws, single pair backdoor straight draws.

On occasion, you'll get shown a few hands that are ahead of you: two pair, set, OESFD.

Call.

godfather,

Thanks for the replies. You've confirmed what I decided were the right plays AFTER I made them /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oh well. Wish just one of them would have worked out.
They happened back-to-back, cleaning out my stack I built up for the last few hours. Stupid KK and QQ.

[Godfather80]

Don't worry. You made the right play against his range. Do you have poker tracker or some program that can tell you who is aggro and who is passive at the table? Get one. Trust me. It will save you tons of money because some of the low-limiters will not make a significant raise or a significant bet without 2 pair or better. Once you have the numbers at your finger tips, you can play with greater confidence and less nagging worry.

[the machine]

do you realize your raise is 15x the bb here. be agressive with your hands but you are pot sticking youself with these big pairs which isnt totally bad but it inclined you to call when you were ahead and behind with qq and kk, and i know kk was a reraise but 1.5 is too much here. if you like going that high then you have to be prepared to make the call everytime when you lead this flop IMO. tough breaks

At this $10NL table... $1 (10x BB) is pretty much a standard raise for any good hand.

At .50-.75, EVERYONE calls you down...we're talking 6-7 callers at a 9-handed table.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
do you realize your raise is 15x the bb here. be agressive with your hands but you are pot sticking youself with these big pairs which isnt totally bad but it inclined you to call when you were ahead and behind with qq and kk, and i know kk was a reraise but 1.5 is too much here. if you like going that high then you have to be prepared to make the call everytime when you lead this flop IMO. tough breaks

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you should put in as much money preflop with your premium hands as your opponents are willing to call. I know it sounds weird, but if you play these tables regularly, you'll see that 15xBB really isn't that out of the ordinary.

Perhaps you are more risk averse than I, but at these limits you pump your premium hands for all they are worth preflop. And, you double up more often than not.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
Pacific

[/ QUOTE ]

Say no more. I'm calling.

[the machine]

yes i understand this and there may be several factors why you get lots of calls. i found at all nl games if theres maniacs then you will be called regardless. i like to keep it low enough to make good decisions. dont get me wrong though, ive bet $25 into a .70 cent pot before pre flop because of my image sometimes a big over bet works and it did here because j9 called you, they hit, you pay them off thats all there is to it. this is by no means berating your play at all i dont hate it just way too big of a bet IMO (to do consistently). do you make it 1.5 with ak? how about aj suit? probaly around .45 to a pot sized raise pf id think, which now is giving away your hand. any player with any tracking software can see your big hands how much you raised pf and have a good idea on what you have. make a call with any two cards and if it hits get paid off. im not sure of your betting patterns but make sure its switched up

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
yes i understand this and there may be several factors why you get lots of calls. i found at all nl games if theres maniacs then you will be called regardless. i like to keep it low enough to make good decisions. dont get me wrong though, ive bet $25 into a .70 cent pot before pre flop because of my image sometimes a big over bet works and it did here because j9 called you, they hit, you pay them off thats all there is to it. this is by no means berating your play at all i dont hate it just way too big of a bet IMO (to do consistently). do you make it 1.5 with ak? how about aj suit? probaly around .45 to a pot sized raise pf id think, which now is giving away your hand. any player with any tracking software can see your big hands how much you raised pf and have a good idea on what you have. make a call with any two cards and if it hits get paid off. im not sure of your betting patterns but make sure its switched up

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost nobody playing $.05/.10 has tracking software to keep track of opponent betting patterns. The sheer cost of the software compared to their poker spending combined with the time required to set the software up, makes it highly unlikely.

They may have some understanding of betting patterns (from "Rounders"), but will have no idea how to properly apply it.

[the machine]

lol.

i saved all my hand histories and do keep track of players at 10 and 25 nl because thats how i am building my roll. started at 10$ and its now at 261$. btw i am more of a live cash game player. anyways all im trying to say to the player is that 15x is too much to do constantly if it was a one time thing then fine but i may also call with a hand like j9 suited because of the big over bet, may look like hes 50 50 here, where a standard raise he may think hes behind. what are you doing to yourself with a hand like qq going that much pf. and leading the flop, how many a or k flops will you see and how many times do you call down after you lead the flop. my point here is that esp with a hand like qq its not the best idea to over value it and come in for 15x the bb esp when its very likely that you could be a coin flip or even way behind. i dont know where i was really going with this whole post guess i should have just said mmmm hmmmmm OP im not crazy about the 15x the bb bet pf. BTW PT is only 55$ not that high of a cost.....

[Maulik]

nice call.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
lol.

i saved all my hand histories and do keep track of players at 10 and 25 nl because thats how i am building my roll. started at 10$ and its now at 261$. btw i am more of a live cash game player. anyways all im trying to say to the player is that 15x is too much to do constantly if it was a one time thing then fine but i may also call with a hand like j9 suited because of the big over bet, may look like hes 50 50 here, where a standard raise he may think hes behind. what are you doing to yourself with a hand like qq going that much pf. and leading the flop, how many a or k flops will you see and how many times do you call down after you lead the flop. my point here is that esp with a hand like qq its not the best idea to over value it and come in for 15x the bb esp when its very likely that you could be a coin flip or even way behind. i dont know where i was really going with this whole post guess i should have just said mmmm hmmmmm OP im not crazy about the 15x the bb bet pf. BTW PT is only 55$ not that high of a cost.....

[/ QUOTE ]

2 points:

First, I'm not sure why you say that when raising to 15xBB with QQ "you are either a coinflip or behind". In the $.05/.10 game we're talking about, we've both said that the calling standards are very wide. With QQ, you are behind only two hands. You have an advantage, from slight to large, over all others (you are 54% against AKs when you don't share a suit).

Secondly, $55 is a lot of money when you consider that these players bankrolls (money devoted to playing poker) exist only in $100-$200 increments.

[the machine]

i just think its too much to do consistently thats all. if this was a one time thing i dont mind it. if you go 1.5 for a standard raise at .05 .1 with all raising hands then you are going to lose much much more money then you make, agreed?

[pho75]

[ QUOTE ]

I believe you should put in as much money preflop with your premium hands as your opponents are willing to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
i just think its too much to do consistently thats all. if this was a one time thing i dont mind it. if you go 1.5 for a standard raise at .05 .1 with all raising hands then you are going to lose much much more money then you make, agreed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely agreed. At $.05/.10, just pump your premium hands and lightly tread otherwise. Opponents won't notice or, if they do notice, they won't care. With a more marginal raising hand like 99, I'd simply bet 4xBB and play poker. I'd also be doing a lot more limping with my marginally strong hands, looking to hit big hands to push with.

[the machine]

pot sized if many limpers and 4x to 5x the bb have been good for me. maybe tilters are just tighter..... hahahahaha now that was funny /images/graemlins/tongue.gif