AKs, give me a line

[ggbman]

I realize i could fold preflop, i just didn't this time. What do you do on the flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

UTG+1 ($2000)
Hero ($2037)
MP1 ($1565)
MP2 ($2669)
MP3 ($1000)
CO ($1970)
Button ($1987)
SB ($1642)
BB ($3666.50)
UTG ($2803)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $20. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $80</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls $80, Button calls $80, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $310</font>, Hero calls $250, CO calls $250, Button calls $250.

Flop: ($1350) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ...

[James282]

I go all in.
-James

[Garland]

I don't think you will lose much by folding to a massive 3-bet by a standard opponent with AK every time.

That said, you played it. The pot is big and slow-playing is wrong. Given the pot size and your stack, I'd just push here.

Garland

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you will lose much by folding to a massive 3-bet by a standard opponent with AK every time.

That said, you played it. The pot is big and slow-playing is wrong. Given the pot size and your stack, I'd just push here.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

Just FWIW, i fold here 85% of the time, sometimes i just like to balance it out.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think you will lose much by folding to a massive 3-bet by a standard opponent with AK every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not that huge, but yea a large part of the time i fold preflop

edit: who was this against?

[BobboFitos]

do alot of you really fold here pf? I'm not saying I wouldn't, but in a shorthanded game thats a squeeze play a huge % of the time.

when it's on BB, there's 270$ dead out there. hmmm.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
do alot of you really fold here pf? I'm not saying I wouldn't, but in a shorthanded game thats a squeeze play a huge % of the time.

when it's on BB, there's 270$ dead out there. hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 10-handed, and he raised from early position. You gotta respect that.

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]
do alot of you really fold here pf? I'm not saying I wouldn't, but in a shorthanded game thats a squeeze play a huge % of the time.

when it's on BB, there's 270$ dead out there. hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

if BB is any good, this cant be a squeeze play. he has to have noticed how loose these guys are. his rr got EVERYONE to call - im sure theres been a ton of cold-calling before.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do alot of you really fold here pf? I'm not saying I wouldn't, but in a shorthanded game thats a squeeze play a huge % of the time.

when it's on BB, there's 270$ dead out there. hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 10-handed, and he raised from early position. You gotta respect that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do respect it, creed. and I would too fold this alot of the time. I'm merely suggesting another perspective.

Also, fwiw, I think flatcalling his big raise is the worst option.

[ggbman]

I think there is serious merit to folding, but calling is definitly better than shoving IMO. The only benefit to shoving is when he folds QQ, but other than that its just bad.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is serious merit to folding, but calling is definitly better than shoving IMO. The only benefit to shoving is when he folds QQ, but other than that its just bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont agree, far too often you win nothing when you improve, (or just c-bet) but you'll fold the "best" hand alot by cold calling pf.

of course, im not expecting people to come in behind me.

pretty interesting spot.

[BobboFitos]

i figured rather then throwing out random speculation about call or push, maybe i could quantify it in numbers to show what i'm saying. (gabe)

of course when action is back on me, you didn't really say cold callers are the type to follow suit. In my head, and htis could DEFINATELY change things, I'm expecting the pot to be HU.

A call puts 850 out there and effecive ~1700 stacks. My basic argument is if he is in fact squeezing, and he cbets, you win that + whats in the pot when he has nothing, yet still lose the max when he does have KK or AA. (Speculating that QQ or JJ, other "real" hands, may get away from an ace or king flop) Problem is you wont flop anything more often then when you do, giving his "bluff / steal equity" full power in this spot.

A push pf? Well, when action is back to you, a "call" puts 850 in the pot. (As said) He would be laid a price of 1720:4250, or he needs 40% equity to call. So any random 2 cards for a squeeze would go away, as they arent given a good enough price at all to gamble.

A small or mid pair may as well fold, which is what you'd like to have happen; if he'd muck QQ even at this point, which is very possible, you're scoring a HUGE EV victory.

So, even if you throw in being called by AA, KK, QQ, (even though QQ combinations are more likely then AA or KK, we can counteract this by saying he may fold QQ, whereas he never folds AA and probably wont ever fold KK) your equity is still ~33% vs that range. Meaning when called, you rate to get back "1402". Interestingly, the break even point is he needs to fold around ~50% of the time. (To show profit)

I dont even know what the point of this is, because I'm not even sold either of these is pos EV! (And why I probably would just fold pf) But I think, continuing this thinking, that you fold too often postflop (incorrectly) or play on when you run into a big hand anyway (incorrectly) to often to validate calling and seeing a flop.

[durrrr]

i bluff this flop a bunch- because of this i have no problem betting here (say 600, push turn). Also i dont mind a c/r at all as i think theres a very high chance some1 takes a stab at it- additionally it saves you $$ if CO/button bet and BB calls/raises (he has an obvious set then).

[AZK]

nice post

[ggbman]

Excellent post Bob, thanks for putting it in numbers. Given the situation, i would be suprised if he folds more than hlf the time.

[BIgMc]

You played it, so what flop were you looking for??? Push your stack in the middle of the table and hope for the best.

[BIgMc]

nice to see that people take time to show evaluations. You've convinced me that calling is bad in this situation.

[Noose]

I'd usually go for a check-raise here. It is highly likely that worse hand than yours will try to take a stab at it, and at the same time you might be able to get some money from the BB as well if he decides to call thinking the stabber is weak.

Check-raise all-in here.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent post Bob, thanks for putting it in numbers. Given the situation, i would be suprised if he folds more than hlf the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks gabe.. yeah, I'm not so sure they fold near enough to make pushing profitable anyway. Just goes to show, as well, just how effective a squeeze can be.

[ggbman]

I bet 1k on the flop, the guy in LP shoved with TT and i didn't get runners /images/graemlins/frown.gif. In retrospect, i think this is a fold preflop since i rarley stack someone postflop but will go broke a decent amount myself.