Do players iso-raise short stacks at PP20? i.e., should I r-r w KQo? [Archive]

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ellipse_87

11-28-2005, 08:18 PM

What is UTG+1's range, assuming he's a typical Party 20+2 player, and what is Hero's best move?

PL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee
HERO is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: CO ( $612 )
Seat 4: HERO ( $2086 )
Seat 5: SB ( $1701 )
Seat 6: BB ( $1379 )
Seat 7: UTG ( $350 )
Seat 10: UTG+1 ( $1872 )
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qh Ks ]
UTG is all-In [350]
UTG+1 raises [700].
CO folds.
HERO ???

pineapple888

11-28-2005, 08:29 PM

Don't know his exact range, but I don't see any reason to get involved. Fold.

11-28-2005, 08:33 PM

Easy fold.

11-28-2005, 08:36 PM

I think UTG could literally have any two cards. Some people will fold trash here, but just as many will push regardless.

But UTG+1 probably has you beat, with any ace or any pair. KQ is not a very good hand against a raise, particularly for a third of your stack. This should be an easy fold. Considering you'd be against at least two opponents, there's no reason to get involved here. I say this not to demean, but as someone who has come from where you're at, thinking this is a tough decision between fold/call/push. Making folds like this routine is part of advancing your SNG game.

ellipse_87

11-28-2005, 08:39 PM

Does anyone have anything to say about UTG pushing just before the BB reaches him, and UTG+1 being aware of this, and how that affects UTG+1's range?

Edit: I'm aware that KQo is a marginal hand and that this is a routine fold absent the special consideration of UTG pushing ahead of his blind and UTG+1 being aware of this.

Put another way, what do you raise with in UTG+1's spot?

pineapple888

11-28-2005, 08:44 PM

ellipse_87

11-28-2005, 08:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I heavily discount UTG, but it counts for something...

which means I think UTG+1 has to have a slightly tighter range than normal for an EP raise...

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you mean slightly looser?

11-28-2005, 08:51 PM

UTG+1 obviously has a hand which he feels he has showdown potential as he's trying to isolate UTG. What hands could he possibly have that are behind to your KQ?

pineapple888

11-28-2005, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I heavily discount UTG, but it counts for something...

which means I think UTG+1 has to have a slightly tighter range than normal for an EP raise...

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you mean slightly looser?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

UTG has something, or he'd just wait for the BB next hand, because he's sure to get called now.

Unless you think UTG+1 is salivating over 350 chips with a bunch of people to act behind him. But I'm pretty sure UTG+1 would be incorrect to do this, so you'd have to have a good read.

Pokerscott

11-28-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have anything to say about UTG pushing just before the BB reaches him, and UTG+1 being aware of this, and how that affects UTG+1's range?

Edit: I'm aware that KQo is a marginal hand and that this is a routine fold absent the special consideration of UTG pushing ahead of his blind and UTG+1 being aware of this.

Put another way, what do you raise with in UTG+1's spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess UTG range is top 50% maybe top 75% of hands. With less he is probably better off defending the BB next orbit.

I would guess UTG+1 has a hand that he likes a lot better than a hand he would open raise with (since he has no fold equity here and only has the blind overlay). UTG+1 is saying he is willing to show this hand down PLUS take the risk of a monster showing up behind. Yes, many times UTG shows up with crap here, but that doesn't change the risk that UTG+1 is taking with his raise.

So suppose UTG folded and UTG+1 puts 1/3 of his stack on the line with that many players behind. Would you reraise with KQo? If the answer is no, I wouldn't do it here.

For me GAP concept would make me fold KQo to just the open raise by UTG+1. I definitely fold to UTG+1 reraise.

I don't play the $22s so maybe that changes things here...

Pokerscott

ellipse_87

11-28-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 obviously has a hand which he feels he has showdown potential as he's trying to isolate UTG. What hands could he possibly have that are behind to your KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1 is confident of showdown potential against UTG. UTG's range includes the entire top 50% of pre-flop hands. Therefore, UTG+1's range includes hands that are behind KQo as well as hands that are ahead of KQo but will fold to a r-r.

11-28-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 obviously has a hand which he feels he has showdown potential as he's trying to isolate UTG. What hands could he possibly have that are behind to your KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a $20 not a $215, you're giving your opponents WAY too much credit. I doubt UTG+1 is folding to a re-raise here, calling standards are way loose. Also you're assuming UTG+1 realises UTG's range is top 50%. I don't think he'd pull this move with QJ, JT etc... I mean, would you? In my opinion MY range for re-raising UTG+1 here is TT+, AQ+... you have plenty of chips to let this one go.

ellipse_87

11-28-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you think UTG+1 is salivating over 350 chips with a bunch of people to act behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually his raise is about an even-money proposition b/c of the blinds. In any case, his position, as well as the expense involved in trying something fancy against him, has me coming over to your point of view, I think.

tigerite

11-28-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 obviously has a hand which he feels he has showdown potential as he's trying to isolate UTG. What hands could he possibly have that are behind to your KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1 is confident of showdown potential against UTG. UTG's range includes the entire top 50% of pre-flop hands. Therefore, UTG+1's range includes hands that are behind KQo as well as hands that are ahead of KQo but will fold to a r-r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. This is a fold.