Motion towards the pot. Question.

Heads up, NLHE. You flop top set. You bet, opponent calls. You turn the boat and have the imortal nuts. You bet, opponent calls. River, brick. You make a value bet. Your opponent thinks for a minute. He happens to have the exact amount for a call covering his hole cards as a card protector. He moves the chips off of his cards, slightly towards the pot, holds his cards facing him in the air, and looks at you. You flip over your cards assuming that he just called and wants you to show first.
He says he never verbally declared he was calling and says your hand is now dead.
When you tell him he put the chips forward for the call he says he was just taking them off his cards. Even though he moved them forward, towards the pot and not sideways.
I'm asking this here because it happened in a home game and there was no floor manager to rule on it.
What is the normal ruling here?

[4_2_it]

If you have any concerns about whether he called ask before you show. As played, your hand is not dead. Unless he did something exaggerated with his chips I do not think he called you. It's still his turn to fold, call or raise you. Looks like you missed out on making some more money......

Most casino tournaments rule that an exposed hand is dead, but usually once it's HU that rule no longer applies.

[AKQJ10]

Sounds like a blatant angle shoot, at least as you described it. In particular, there's no rule that says that your hand is dead because you showed it (unless you plainly tossed it face up into the muck, I believe -- EDIT: I'll defer to the previous post because I don't play many B&M tournaments; still, it doesn't apply HU).

In general rules should be interpreted against the best interest of the angle shooter (at least IMO good floors believe this), hence it's a call.

The preceding poster is correct, though -- you should wait for a clear verbal declaration before showing your hand.

If you want something more definitive, feel free to consult Robert's Rules (http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/rules.php) -- the preceding is just my educated guess.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

Most casino tournaments rule that an exposed hand is dead, but usually once it's HU that rule no longer applies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if Tournament Director's Association rules are in effect, which they usually are. The player may incur a penalty, whether HU or facing multiple opponents, but will not have the hand killed.

As for the OP, the hand should not be dead. HU in a ring game, there is usually no restriction on showing cards. Also, it doesn't really sound like a call to me. You should always ask if unsure.

Regards,

T

Thanks for the info. I agree that I should have asked him before showing. In this case, I don't think he was trying to angle me (it was my brother.) The real argument was based on his declaration of my hand being dead because I showed. The cards never hit the muck. After googling the answer I only found rules on limit poker and "inducing a player to act by motioning towards the pot with chips."
Side note:
Players were a little drunk. Final ruling was based on who won the wrestling match that ensued. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks again.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

Side note:
Players were a little drunk. Final ruling was based on who won the wrestling match that ensued. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Feats of strength. That's a resolution floor people should adopt in B&M rooms.

Here's the TDA rules for future tournament reference. (http://www.pokertda.com/)

Regards,

T

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You flop top set. You bet, opponent calls. You turn the boat and have the imortal nuts.

Not to be a nit, but when you turn a boat after flopping top set you do not have the nuts.

[Kaeser]

[ QUOTE ]
You flop top set. You bet, opponent calls. You turn the boat and have the imortal nuts.

Not to be a nit, but when you turn a boat after flopping top set you do not have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same thing at first however example: A-10 board reads A,A,5,10. Although generally a set refers to a pair in the hole I do believe it can also refer to a single card that makes 3 of a kind on the board.

To the OP: I can't say whether this guy is trying to angel-shoot you but I've seen cases where a player slid a chip off of his cards and another player tried to make that a call as he now had a chip forward of his hand.

Best defense as far as I can tell is to wait for a verbal announcement of his action or ask, "did you call".

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking the same thing at first however example: A-10 board reads A,A,5,10. Although generally a set refers to a pair in the hole I do believe it can also refer to a single card that makes 3 of a kind on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people use it that way, yes, but the majority opinion is that they're wrong.

They're also giving up a good deal of descriptive value; AA on an AT5 board is much stronger than AT on an AA5 board.

Incidentally, my understanding is that the term comes from gin or other rummy games. In those games you'd almost always make a "set" by drawing a third card matching two in your hand, FWIW.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking the same thing at first however example: A-10 board reads A,A,5,10. Although generally a set refers to a pair in the hole I do believe it can also refer to a single card that makes 3 of a kind on the board.


[/ QUOTE ]

Many recreational players make no distinctions between one-in-hand and two-in-hand three-of-a-kinds. However, a set is customarily of the two-in-hand variety. They are both three-of-a-kind, of course, but they are very different hands, generally.

Sadly, some well-known professional players who write and talk about the game sometimes muddy the distinction, and that makes getting to a common nomenclature difficult.

Regards,

T

When I have an opponent who likes to be ambiguous (i.e. slight motions forward with chips in his hand trying to pick up, GOD I HATE THESE PR!CKS), I sit there like an idiot and basically almost wait to hear "I CALL YOU MOMO!! Whadda ya got?". Seriously. If he doesn't make it clear, sit there until he does. BTW, the only time I would slowroll is against a putz like this.

My mistake. I guess he could have had quads.

I hate them too. In this case it was just a misunderstanding. The only reason I know he wasn't trying to screw me was because it was my brother. The only way to avoid this in the future is to ask for a verbal declaration.
Thanks.

[AngusThermopyle]

You tried to force your brother to call because he moved his cap chips off his cards.
Your brother wanted to kill your hand when you showed you had him beat.

Your mother should spank you both.

She was too busy marking the deck and palming chips off of our stacks.