i open limped on the button

[sthief09]

loose passive straightforward BB and SB. i open limp 22 on the button. k?

not much content here, just curious if its ok

[NLSoldier]

id rather do it with like 89 or something. 22 i really want at least one of them gone.

[Victor]

what else are you gonna openlimp here?

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
id rather do it with like 89 or something. 22 i really want at least one of them gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this advice. 89o even has 1/3 equity, and does better multiway.

I fold. The hand sucks 3 handed.

[ArturiusX]

I open limped T8s the other day, and I liked my decision.

The flop came K52, checked to me, I bet, scooped a pot /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[krishanleong]

I don't like it much. Sometimes you pick up the pot when people check to you (equal for all hands). But other than that, you want a hand that can make something postflop such that you can play back at people/make a hand.

I don't like the way 22 fits the second criteria. I'd much rather raise preflop and bet/bet/check behind if possible.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 38.1372 % 37.18% 00.96% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
Hand 2: 31.8687 % 30.90% 00.97% { random }
Hand 3: 29.9941 % 29.65% 00.35% { 22 }

That represents a sb who calls with about 60% of his hands and a BB who calls 100%. Is this reasonable?

So if you raise, 40% you get it headsup against a random hand with position which you have about 50% equity against. This guy will make mistakes postflop by peeling the flop/turn and will not put you to the test much. Pretty sweet situation.

60% of the time that you raise the pot will be 3way and you will have about 29% equity. You'll be at a slight deficit but will have initiative and will still be able to profit from postflop mistakes made by your opponents (their mistakes will be less than if you had limped though).

This does not take into account the fact that you will still get 3bet preflop by premium hands.

All in all, I think as long as your loose opponents are passive and not aggressive you should go ahead and raise. If they are loose and aggressive, I think you should fold.

Is this a sb that calls 100%?

[sthief09]

when i say loose passive i mean they were loooooooooooose and passive. i dont remember the numbers but one was around 78/1 and the other 70/5 or something.

there are a few reasons why i did it. first of all, its going to be very easy to read their hands. in an unraised pot, i would guess that theyd always bet top pair and sometimes middle pair. if i raise preflop, they will check to the raiser and i will have to take shots at the pot. then im stuck blasting twice and hoping my hand is good. i think i have a significant edge postflop, by having position and knowing what they have. plus, i can beat any busted draw or A high at showdown.

i think opponents like this are great for doing this against. maybe 22 was a poor selection (though as of now i favor it over calling or folding) though. theres a lot to be said for keeping the pot small here. when im behind i ahve an easy fold. when im ahead they are getting terrible drawing odds. and further, i can usually do the right thing since its an unraised pot

[sthief09]

the problem with raising is i dont want to build a pot. i want to be able to take it down on the flop or offer them bad odds if they want to chase. by raising i give them better chasing odds and they will instinctively check to me 3 times, possibly even if they flop top pair

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold. The hand sucks 3 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not a great hand, but its a pair, and i am against straightforward, loose opponents

[ QUOTE ]
first of all, its going to be very easy to read their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
This, I don't get at all. You might know when they have top pair, but that's about it.

I see the hand going check, check, bet...call, call on at least the flop and turn.

How will you ever know when they have TPWK, MP, BP, a low PP like 33, 44 etc., or pair the turn?

I'm not sure how easy it will be to read this hand.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first of all, its going to be very easy to read their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
This, I don't get at all. You might know when they have top pair, but that's about it.

I see the hand going check, check, bet...call, call on at least the flop and turn.

How will you ever know when they have TPWK, MP, BP, a low PP like 33, 44 etc., or pair the turn?

I'm not sure how easy it will be to read this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


if they both call i check the turn and fold the river. if one calls i bet the turn and check the river unless i have reason to believe he has and will call with A high. and ill usually fold if one of them bets. pretty simple, no?

In practice, it's not that simple, but you can try. Lemme know the results after you do it 50,000 times. I'm curious too.

[Lmn55d]

you make some good points. I guess my claim was that sb will fold often enough that the value of getting it headsup x% of the time for 1.5 more sb (4.5 sb pot as opposed to 2.5) offsets the advantages you describe. How often do you think that particular sb folds?

[Entity]

I like it Josh. I do this against these sorts of opponents with a decent range.

Rob

[baronzeus]

i think the EV difference between limping and raising here is tiny...but if you can get rid of SB i'd rather raise, as others have said

edit: it seems like you cant get rid of either one at all, ever. if this is the case then limping is right, but you're gonna have to fire one on the flop and the turn if they check to you regardless, so i still don't think it makes much of a difference.

[wdcbooks]

I fold, and I am not sure I understand the arguments for anything else. It seems clear that you don't have enough equity against two random hands to limp. It also seems clear that these players will not be folding any pair against you. There are many hands to come and you will have many chances to take advantage of these players.

I see a very high danger that you will feel lost against these players on each street. You could bet all three streets and get called on the flop and turn by everything from a gutshot, to overcards, to top pair. You have no hope of knowing where you stand unless they both fold, or they raise, neither of which is likely. Players with those stats aren't going to fold many flops either. I would say that more than half the time they will find a reason to peel, even if you bet the flop.

Raising is better as you have some chance to eliminate the SB and you gain the presumption that you have the best hand. Perhaps more importantly raising buys you the ace. Even the dimmest bulbs (especially the dimmest bulbs) of the poker world defer to the raiser if an ace flops. They might even fold bottom pair.

Calling would be my last choice.

[ggbman]

I fold or raise preflop. i will attempt more analysis when i am less crunked ot who ever you speell it.

Meh.

What flop could possibly come that you'll be happy with? Against LPs, what are the chances one of the two villains wont be there at showdown? Will your pocket ducks be good at showdown?

I fold this always.

[ QUOTE ]
if they both call i check the turn and fold the river. if one calls i bet the turn and check the river unless i have reason to believe he has and will call with A high. and ill usually fold if one of them bets. pretty simple, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

A player holding unpaired cards will miss the flop about 2 in 3 times.

Therefore, as a rough approximation, for two players holding unpaired cards, the flop will miss BOTH players about 4 times in 9. A majority of times, 5/9, somebody hits the flop and makes a pair.

Now add in the fact that LPPs with big overcards will peel on the turn exactly 100% of the time, as will LPPs holding Ace-rag, and they will make a pair much more often than you will spike a set.

And consider that any larger pair not only will go to showdown 100% of the time, but also they will crush your outs.

Bottom line, your hand is rarely good on the flop, and even less frequently good by the turn.

Your strategy has you folding the river a lot.

[TStoneMBD]

id only limp this if you had a read that the 2 opponents will only bet the flop if they have pairs and wont steal flops, then you can safely fold 22 against a bet. otherwise, youre just passing up the equity from the SB by raising a hand that is -ev hot and cold and probably reverse implied odds even though youre in position.

[NLfool]

well stats wise 22 sucks for me in SH limit games so I either raise or fold but as you described your opponents I lean towards a raise.

That being said I have noticed a metagame part where when I do open limp in position (after constantly raising the blinds) it's much easier for me to steal pots without resistance (obviously the reduced odds makes it more viable for them to fold, but there is something else I can't put into words)

My english sucks but the whole point is sometimes giving the blinds a pass makes them more likely to concede pots (or less adamant about fighting for the pot)

I agree that if there is any possibility of getting sb to fold, then a raise is proper but with them being 75/1's I don't see this happening too often so i might tend to agree that limping isn't bad.

I find myself often times against these types firing away mindlessly with marginal holdings like this and have been pondering for awhile whether slowing down a little is optimal. All this info is helpful

[stoxtrader]

I open limped T8s the other day, and I liked my decision.

The flop came K52, checked to me, I bet, scooped a pot :cool:

I guess if you had raised you could have made more.

[I am fish]

Hi Josh,

Sklansky talks about almost this exact situation in Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players in the short-handed section titled "When the Blinds are Very Loose" p197.

He argues that you should open limp from the button with hands like 22,33,76s,A6o when the blinds are very loose and highly likely to defend against your raise.

He says you run into trouble with a hand like A6o if you raise and both blinds call. That the hand is not worth much if it misses the flop and that because of this you don't want to invest so much money before the flop when you know you have little chance in stealing the blinds.

He says another reason to open limp on the button with hands like 22,33,76s,A6o is something that you already mentioned. That you are more likely to steal the pot if they both check to you on the flop... and that you should always bet if they both check.

He says if you think you will steal the blinds preflop as much as 30% of the time, then you should raise... but if not he says that raising will usually hurt you.

Peace

22 is such a bad hand. You have 30.5% equity vs guys who dont fold with a hand where its extremely hard to know if you are ahead. Imo the value in 22 on the button is its ability to win the blinds which pretty much any other hand can do. Now when you cant do that I am folding it. Do this play with hands like 89o,J8o instead.

[Michael Davis]

Josh,

A few weeks ago there was a post dealing with this exact problem. Did you miss it?

Preflop open limp on button (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=headsup&Number=3978483&Se archpage=1&Main=3978483&Words=preflop+Josh.&topic= &Search=true#Post3978483)

-Michael

[PokerBob]

where the hell have you been?