Straddle Discussion

[Schneids]

Last night at Canterbury Jimmy the Greek (one of the worst poker players you can imagine) wanted to start straddle rounds in the 30 game. I immediately jump in and say "Jimmy if you want straddles, I'm right here with you doing it" or something like that (I'm also seated immediately on his left, so I figure if he does then I will and hopefully others follow). BK says "I will if everyone else does." Naturally, he already knows the two people between him and me don't straddle, however, its quite likely a few of the people seated after him will straddle.

So yeah, Jimmy straddles, I straddle, then it dies. Inside I'm angry at BK but wait to till after we're done to tell him:

"If Jimmy wants straddles, you straddle. He is here to gamble, he likes to gamble, and it's your job as a pro to provide him with that. So what if 1-3 other people at the table won't join in, a lot will and whatever EV you are giving up by being one of maybe 5 people at the table straddling is more than made up for by the fact Jimmy is enjoying himself, will come back more often, and will stay longer to play when you are in the game gambling it up with him."

So lets say you are straddling along with approximately 5 others. Is this insurmountable EV to overcome just to make sure a big donater is happy? BK thinks so, I don't (this coming from a guy who has played 63s for 4 bets PF and then dark bet a flop with it from his SB in the 30 game).

Perhaps some of the guys with lots of B&M experience and knowledge can chime in here. Thanks.

[Nomar]

based on what little knowledge I have of both of you, I thought you guys played that live 30-60, for fun, for a night out, to have some fun with friends, ect...

based on that, I would assume you should both be straddling and gambling it up, even with this slight -EV play you should both be favorites in the game.

[Boris]

I don't think you should straddle more than once a month.

As for keeping Jimmy happy, he will most probably gamble regardless of what you do. I'm not a big fan of "let's all kiss the live one's ass to make him stay." I don't think it works. Just don't be a total dick to him. It's easy to lie to people except when you're being condescending.

[Schneids]

I go there to play for fun while expecting/hoping to make a little money doing it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Boris]

BK should have straddled. Not to please Jimmy, but to escape being designated as a Nit.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]

based on what little knowledge I have of both of you, I thought you guys played that live 30-60, for fun, for a night out, to have some fun with friends, ect...


[/ QUOTE ]

While this is true (and it used to be super true...hence the getting in there for the 4 bet with 63s and betting the flop dark) it gets pretty old dropping a thousand or two every time you play.

I decided winning was more 'fun' than 'having fun' and losing if that makes sense. If I want to play like a donk I go play lower stakes, not to say that I don't ever donk it up at 30. Most of that donking is trying things out and just going with what I feel like doing...hence the spray with q3o I made the other week vs schneider that he posted.

I'm with boris, jimmy will gamble/spray it up regaurdless of if we straddle along. Although it might improve your standing with him a touch, it doesn't overly matter imo.

[Schneids]

He's one of the nicest guys in the building too. I have no reason to be condescending to him, nor pander to him at the table. I'm just saying you get the EV back from your straddles by keeping him there as long as possible, which helps by having him like you, which means you straddle and encourage others to straddle if that is what he wants.

Like, for instance last night he rebought twice. I know there are times I've played with him when the game is nitty and he busts off his first buy in and he leaves because he's gotten crabby and isn't enjoying himself.

Plus since as I said, he's a great guy so even with the fact I'm going there with "fun" in mind too, it's fun AND profitable having him at the table.

Which is why I think BK is horribly wrong and made this post /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
BK should have straddled. Not to please Jimmy, but to escape being designated as a Nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you asked the top 50 players (and by top i mean the players who play the 30/60 the most) I bet you would get 0 responses that I'm a nit. I sit down at the table and people often get excited about the action that just sat down...even though they know I play pretty well. They just know things are going to get a little more interesting.

It's lessoning (if that's even a word), but you'd probably still get about half that think I'm at least a boarderline maniac. They don't get the whole selectively agressive business.

Schneids,


First of all, I hope this guys name isn't jimmy the greek, because if it is, there is always the remote possibility that he could read this and quit playing with you or decide to become some sort of ultra rock. I really hope you disguised his name.

Secondly, if he wants to straddle, straddle with him. Players like this enjoy gambling more than they enjoy poker, and straddling is a way for them to get goofy and play some weird hands, and it allows them to play more hands than they normally would. Players like these are the ones that support a pros income in B&M rooms, and where I play we try to make honest friends with them and make them feel as comfortable as possible, but not to the point of it being on a false pretense. Try and be social with them, and keep them around as long as possible. If they start to feel like they're playing with a bunch of rocks and hard ass poker players who dont do anything but grind, they WILL find someone else to play with. But here's something to really remember when dealing with these guys: If you view them as strictly a source of income, they wont be around very long. There's nothing wrong with beating them in pots, but dont get greedy, either. I've seen guys give action to these kind of players as sort of an investment in their future so to speak, with little to nothing as far as cards were concerned.





Tex

[threeonefour]

live straddle or dead straddle?

i would definitely do the live straddle. dead straddle i would do probably only if 80% or more of the table also participates.

[censored]ing nits...

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[I'm with boris, jimmy will gamble/spray it up regaurdless of if we straddle along. Although it might improve your standing with him a touch, it doesn't overly matter imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

You notice he left last night right after we did? Coincidental, or...?

WHAT IF JIMMY HAPPENED TO READ THIS?


IT IS POSSIBLE.....

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[I'm with boris, jimmy will gamble/spray it up regaurdless of if we straddle along. Although it might improve your standing with him a touch, it doesn't overly matter imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

You notice he left last night right after we did? Coincidental, or...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Half the table left.

Probably a little of both. He likes us. I agree with you. I just don't think not straddling will really hurt anything. I gave him far more action than you did last night too...

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
WHAT IF JIMMY HAPPENED TO READ THIS?


IT IS POSSIBLE.....

[/ QUOTE ]

If I didn't think he'd take it well I wouldn't use his name, though you have no idea if that is really his name or just a monicker I made up or that he made up. I'm not too concerned about it. Plus I genuinely like the guy and I think he knows that and he likes me so whatever.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
WHAT IF JIMMY HAPPENED TO READ THIS?


IT IS POSSIBLE.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Then nothing?

He's a smart guy. He's a businessman. He knows we do this for our 'job'. He knows in general we're in it for the money. He also knows he goes there to gamble and have a good time at the expense of money. He's got more than enough and just wants to have fun.

I'm Jimmy.













j/k


Tex

[JasonM]

On the remote chance that Jimmy would read this I highly doubt he would care at all. He may be a terrible card player but he isn't stupid, the guy knows he plays bad. He has a lot of money and comes to gamble and have a good time.

[Chief911]

I commonly will live straddle once or twice early in my session, especially if I can get one or two other people to go along with it. The amount that it loosens up the table is SO worth the extra $ put in while straddling.

I think its +EV if you have a few people that a live straddle or two plus some lively chat will liven up the game. If the game doesnt need to be livened up, but it'll keep a huge donator having fun, I'd do that too.

If he's a degenerate gambler who would play regardless, then meh.

Nick

[NLSoldier]

Jimmy is the coolest guy ever. If Jimmy says straddle, you [censored] straddle!

[worm33]

Having played with Jimmy for almost 3 years, as long as you are having fun and its a good atmosphere he will not leave unless he has something else to do. Back in the day when I was just starting out in the 30 game I played at least 5 overnight sessions with Jimmy where he blew more than 10 dimes. You don't need to straddle to keep Jimmy there or happy, you just need to not patronize him, respect him, and talk to him about things other than poker. And once he gets stuck 5k you dont need to talk to him anymore.

PS. Jimmy is one of the nicest and fun guys you could ever hope to play with, terrible player or not.

[Josh W]

Often, when a few people are willing to straddle, you take the first straddler (Jimmy in this case), take his 6 chips that he's straddling with, and rubber band those chips together. This is the "rock".

He straddles. Somebody wins the pot. Whoever wins the pot gives the rock to the next UTG, so UTG can straddle without risking any of his chips.

Often when some people don't wanna but others do, this can really liven up the game, and get everybody to straddle.

Josh

[Schneids]

Hehe rocks are no longer allowed at Canterbury Card Club in MN. Nor is using different colored chips as "markers" for a rock. Something about the MN Gaming Commission saying no to it and it "making certain people who don't want to straddle feel uncomfortable." Yes, otherwise, a rock is a fine solution.

[Josh W]

1 up
1 up
1 up
1 up
1 up
1 up

oh, sorry.

[bicyclekick]

yeah and one of the regulars bought out a sportsmart of all their bright orange hockey pucks and passed them around the table in protest. Wish I coulda been their for that.

[Kevin J]

We put a rock in when I was up there in Oct. and no one said anything. ?? It turned a bad game into a pretty good one.

I don't get it.. How can the gaming commission prevent the use of a rock? Either straddling is legal or it isn't. If it's legal, how can they stop people from straddling? That seems silly.

My two cents on your question: While it might seem totally unnatural to most good player's to commit money blind, occasionally straddling actually doesn't cost that much in terms of long run EV. I have no problem straddling every once in a while if it gets a game going. It can also do wonders for a tight image.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it.. How can the gaming commission prevent the use of a rock? Either straddling is legal or it isn't. If it's legal, how can they stop people from straddling? That seems silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was the whole passing around chips to start the rock that they got pissed about I'm pretty sure.

I think canterbury is the one who's putting the axe down more because of the uncomfortability factor.

There is nothing to stop players from keeping track of it themselves, but they want no 'identifyers'.

[Kevin J]

Right. I do understand their POV. They don't want to create an uncomfortable atmosphere where players might feel pressured to straddle when they don't want to.

And rocks usually create problems in rooms anyway that won't recognize them. It's been my experience there will always be some jerk who says nothing at first, wins a big pot due the rock, and then takes it out of the game.

[gonores]

OK, lets say the game has 5 Schneiders, 3 BKs, and 1 Jimmy.

Since Schneider is straddling to keep Jimmy happy, he'll have to do all of the inherent -EV things that go along with it, namely calling all bets preflop and making a few loose calls/raises in the name of generating big pots. I think it's fair to assume that straddling costs $40-$50 per orbit for Schneider to straddle. Fortunately, he makes $20 off the 4 other Schneider straddles ($45/9 players * 4 straddles), and lets say $10 off of Jimmy's straddle, since he is more apt to do -EV activity while straddling. So lets say each Schneider is losing $15 off this proposition every orbit.

At 36 hands per hour, each Schneider is giving up 1BB of EV to keep Jimmy happy.

OK, now lets say Jimmy loses 16BBs* per hour (~$1k) to the table. That's 2BB per hour for all the BKs and Schneiders at the table, all things being equal, whereas the BKs and Schneiders would be playing a 0 EV game without Jimmy (obviously overlooking the rake to simplify things).

* In my PT DB, I have 5 players with >100 hands who lose more than 50BBs per 100 hands (and they are all a) pretty close to -50BB/100 and b) under 200 total hands, skewing the sample toward the extremities). That is the rate at which Jimmy must lose at to hit 16BB/hr live. If anything, the estimate of 16BB/100 is a little extreme.

Following the math, if Schneider sacrifices 1BB of EV per orbit, he needs to ensure that table-straddle tactics double the amount of Jimmy time in the game to make it a +EV decision.

I find it hard to believe Jimmy stays twice as long just as long as people straddle. Meanwhile, Schneider could just as easily use his boyish charm to engage Jimmy in interesting conversation to keep him there. Or engage in prop bets with him. Or something. Straddling is fun, but I don't think you can call that a +EV long term decision.

Oh yeah, and each BK makes almost 4 times as much as each Schneider in this scenario.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, lets say the game has 5 Schneiders, 3 BKs, and 1 Jimmy.

Since Schneider is straddling to keep Jimmy happy, he'll have to do all of the inherent -EV things that go along with it, namely calling all bets preflop and making a few loose calls/raises in the name of generating big pots. I think it's fair to assume that straddling costs $40-$50 per orbit for Schneider to straddle. Fortunately, he makes $20 off the 4 other Schneider straddles ($45/9 players * 4 straddles), and lets say $10 off of Jimmy's straddle, since he is more apt to do -EV activity while straddling. So lets say each Schneider is losing $15 off this proposition every orbit.

At 36 hands per hour, each Schneider is giving up 1BB of EV to keep Jimmy happy.

OK, now lets say Jimmy loses 16BBs* per hour (~$1k) to the table. That's 2BB per hour for all the BKs and Schneiders at the table, all things being equal, whereas the BKs and Schneiders would be playing a 0 EV game without Jimmy (obviously overlooking the rake to simplify things).

* In my PT DB, I have 5 players with >100 hands who lose more than 50BBs per 100 hands (and they are all a) pretty close to -50BB/100 and b) under 200 total hands, skewing the sample toward the extremities). That is the rate at which Jimmy must lose at to hit 16BB/hr live. If anything, the estimate of 16BB/100 is a little extreme.

Following the math, if Schneider sacrifices 1BB of EV per orbit, he needs to ensure that table-straddle tactics double the amount of Jimmy time in the game to make it a +EV decision.

I find it hard to believe Jimmy stays twice as long just as long as people straddle. Meanwhile, Schneider could just as easily use his boyish charm to engage Jimmy in interesting conversation to keep him there. Or engage in prop bets with him. Or something. Straddling is fun, but I don't think you can call that a +EV long term decision.

Oh yeah, and each BK makes almost 4 times as much as each Schneider in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

[/ QUOTE ]

You're damn right. I'd have to yell and needle enough to make him give up the $150/hr or so that he'd be giving up to come join me and my straddling crew. It's a good thing I'm Doug [censored] Meyer and I know how to make BK straddle if I need to make him straddle.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

[/ QUOTE ]

You're damn right. I'd have to yell and needle enough to make him give up the $150/hr or so that he'd be giving up to come join me and my straddling crew. It's a good thing I'm Doug [censored] Meyer and I know how to make BK straddle if I need to make him straddle.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, I just wanted to make sure no one got the wrong impresssion based on your first post /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]
Hehe rocks are no longer allowed at Canterbury Card Club in MN. Nor is using different colored chips as "markers" for a rock. Something about the MN Gaming Commission saying no to it and it "making certain people who don't want to straddle feel uncomfortable." Yes, otherwise, a rock is a fine solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played in this game last week and we played with a rock the majority of the time...it was not rubberbanded but we used 2 $25 green chips as the identifier. The dealers for sure and the floor almost definately knew this was going on and didn't do anything nor say anything. So, I don't think they follow that rule too much. I played with both you and BK but I don't think it was a rock game then. I think I know the player you are referring to and I think I side with Schneids and I would straddle.

[dcarlc]

[ QUOTE ]
WHAT IF JIMMY HAPPENED TO READ THIS?


IT IS POSSIBLE.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I have known Jimmy for about 20years. He will not be reading this.

[mike l.]

what we used to do back when the 20 game here was really good and went all night all the time was do "mandatory live straddle with a rebate". so everyone straddled every hand and got $20 back from whoever won the pot. it was so awesome.

[sfer]

WTF does EV have to do with straddling?

[TaintedRogue]

When you all give Jimmy good action, does he give you good sporting bet tips?

[Tommy Angelo]

"I think BK is horribly wrong"

Here's how I see it. A poker player made a decision.

It happened to be BK, and it happened to be a decision to not straddle, but really it was just another decision by just another poker player. Could have been anyone, doing anything.

If there's one thing we assume about poker players and their decisions, it's that poker players are looking out for their own interests. So if I decide to quit when you would have stayed, or if BK decides to not straddle when you would have straddled, well, in both cases, and all others too, your opinion has nothing to do with it, just as I have nothing to do with you not quitting when I would have, just as BK has nothing to do with it when you decide to straddle. I'm not saying that everyone can be right when we make our decisions. More than that, I'm saying that everyone is always right. For who better can judge what is best for me better than I can? No one. Who can judge what is best for you better than you can? No one. Who can judge whether BK should have straddled better than BK can? No one.

Tommy

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
"I think BK is horribly wrong"

Here's how I see it. A poker player made a decision.

It happened to be BK, and it happened to be a decision to not straddle, but really it was just another decision by just another poker player. Could have been anyone, doing anything.

If there's one thing we assume about poker players and their decisions, it's that poker players are looking out for their own interests. So if I decide to quit when you would have stayed, or if BK decides to not straddle when you would have straddled, well, in both cases, and all others too, your opinion has nothing to do with it, just as I have nothing to do with you not quitting when I would have, just as BK has nothing to do with it when you decide to straddle. I'm not saying that everyone can be right when we make our decisions. More than that, I'm saying that everyone is always right. For who better can judge what is best for me better than I can? No one. Who can judge what is best for you better than you can? No one. Who can judge whether BK should have straddled better than BK can? No one.

Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy I know there have been times in the mirage 3/6 game where I (along with GoT and Justin) have been positive your decision to not straddle was incorrect. So we found a simple solution, put the 6 chips out there for you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
Who can judge what is best for you better than you can? No one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to my shrink.