Why aren't you better?

[bones]

I've always wondered what separates the good from the very good in SNG play. I can usually tell what people at my skill level need to work on and what their strengths are, but it's usually something that's easily correctable. But I'm really interested in what separates a very good 215er from a good 109er. What separates you from a winning player at a higher level, or what separates you from a winning player at a lower level?

As a 2nd question mostly for lower limit players, if you're beating the 22s, why aren't you playing the 33s? Assume that bankroll considerations aren't a factor, unless it's too psychologically stressful to lose at the higher limit. Why do you play at the level you're at?

[citanul]

i'm [censored] amazing, i don't know what you're talking about.

sometimes, i even impress myself.

c

[citanul]

bah, i guess that i'll write a real answer:

the overwhelming reason that more people aren't very good/great at these games is that they either don't work very hard at it or don't know what to work on. this can take on the form of not having an open enough mind to consider that things besides the things you concentrate on or are good at are important to success and improvement. another reason is that they are very poor poker players.

[junkmail3]

9-5 + wife

[Bonafone]

Well I would like to think I'm still improving, but I think playing more than 4 tables is slowing me down from making the jump to the 215's. Also I'm quite the p00sy, if it wasn't for deuce2high I would still be in the 55's. I think the only thing stopping me from moving up is confidence.

Any yes, citanul is a [censored] amazing.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
don't know what to work on

[/ QUOTE ]

[downtown]

When I was in engineering undergrad, I would try to plug things into a formula. Or I would try to find the formula in the book. Then, one day, I sort of "got it" and was able to figure things out better on my own when problems weren't so straight forward.

Really low level SNGs are sort of formulaic, and the approach is similar for a lot of players. Look at all the posts that say "tell me what to do here," rather than asking why or allowing or allowing for all variables to be taken into account.

The easy formula at the beginning aspect of SNGS is what makes them easy to learn, and it's how I got into SNGs in the first place. Moving up is sort of like not being able to plug into the quation anymore, but having to take into consideration more variables. The higher you go, the more considerations there are.

And to answer the second part of your question, since I only play the 55s, what holds me back personally is not having played enough to figure out what all those variables are and what all the necessary changes are as you move up. Also, wanting to play as many tables as possible in order to maximize my hourly rate, rather than fine tuning my game slows my progress upward, so I try to compensate by surfing 2+2 a couple of times a day at work.

[raptor517]

balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[The Yugoslavian]

Focus
Discipline
Empathy

Not necessarily in that order.

Yugoslav

[fluorescenthippo]

i think about this a lot and honestly i have no idea. i feel like i have gotten so much better in the last 5 months yet my ROI is basically the same. i also find myself agreeing with the top posters in almost all hands posted. but i still suck /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I understand the concepts, have little to no idea how to apply them.

Also, hands seem clearer in hand histories than when played out.

[beeyjay]

I play a lot and lose focus on the point of the game. After a break I find myself realizing that the only point of the game is to win the chips in the middle and subsequently money. This can be accomplished by having the best hand or making others think you have the best hand.

Too often after playing for extended periods of time (either hours or days/weeks) I forget that the game is this simple and start getting into the mindset that I am better than my opponent and deserve to win because I started the hand with AK and he started it with 10J and I call him down just to prove that I was unlucky or something.

I play best when I think about the fact that I want my opponent's money not his respect.

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]


this is so true. and this is one of the reasons i get frustrated. most poker up to the 109s lvl is pretty straight forward. these close bubble decisions and post flop situations where you arent sure if your hand is good or not dont come up very often.
yet the fact that a great player can have double my ROI at the same level because of these rare situations (obviously this isnt true, but i feel im playing perfect besides these close situations - the fact that i cant even fathom what else i could be doing wrong also pisses me off) boggles my mind.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
As a 2nd question mostly for lower limit players, if you're beating the 22s, why aren't you playing the 33s? Assume that bankroll considerations aren't a factor, unless it's too psychologically stressful to lose at the higher limit. Why do you play at the level you're at?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play STT to moderate the variance from MTTs. The last five months my income has been split almost 50/50 between the two. I've spent 10K and have about a 10K BR between Party and Stars. I 4-table the 55s when I feel like I am playing my A-game and 8-table the 22s when I feel that I need to "work", but don't feel up to my best game. Right now I play part-time, but I am taking steps to give fulltime a go.

The biggest thing that keeps me at this level is the steady money. I know there are things I need to work on, but right now I have limited time and increasing my bankroll is the key to freeing up the time I need to improve. I plan to take a hiatus from my job around the first of the year to see what I can do fulltime.

One thing I lack is a network of other players to bounce ideas off, discuss strategies, etc..I have had to plod through the SNG learning curve solo (except for this blessed forum). Hopefully, when I have the time to play more live and get out from in front of my damned computer I can correct this.

I'm doing my best to get better, I'm currently grinding out the $5s on Stars, single-tabling and posting any questionable hands on here and trying to improve my SNG play, as I'm still playing like a cash game player. Once I'm happy with the decisions I'm making, I'll start to learn to multi-table, starting from 2, moving probably upto 4, maybe 6. Then I'll start playing sets of 3 $5s and 1 $10, gradually increasing the $10s till I'm 4/6 tabling them and so forth, dropping back down if I have to. I want to give this a good shot and see what my $hourly rate can be, and how it compares to my current [censored] day job!

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't curtains do this?

[bones]

The general theme of this post reminds me of a poster that a teacher of mine in high school had:

Many have the will to succeed, but far fewer have the willingness to do what it takes to succeed.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't curtains do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your point?!

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Yugoslav

[valenzuela]

First of all I want to note that Im using qucik reply mode to see what happens.
Im not better because:..
1) I lack self- determination.
2) I lack material to help me learn.( books, tutors, programs, etc
)

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

Also, I don't move up in stakes entirely because I'm not comfortable.

[mlagoo]

i dont really know why im not better.

i feel like i "get it," and yet im still struggling along with a 13% ROI at the 22s.

to be fair, i dont play enough. anywhere near enough. but im in law school, and thats just the way it is. so perhaps its just that i dont have that much practice.

i have a little over 1000 SNGs and i'm kind of stumped at why my results arent better. im not a mathematician, and never have been (in fact i havent taken a math since the 10th grade), but i think i understand all the basic concepts espoused on these forums.

one thing is that i probably tilt away an average of one SNG per down session. this doesn't amount to a great deal of -ROI, but it certainly isnt helping matters.

all in all i would just say that i don't practice enough. and that's why im still pretty much mediocre. otoh, i have been doing great at mtts and nl ring lately, which is nice. maybe i'm jsut running well though =/

[bluefeet]

Because my pussy-ness in real life tends to bleed into my poker play. Lack of balls, holla

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Focus


[/ QUOTE ]

For me, this is the only one.

Dont know what work on.

Also I let the results get to my head way too much. If I finish one great set, the next set I'm over confidented making -EV pushes. If I lose all the games in the set, I'm missing a lot of +EV pushes on the next set, because I'm afraid to pull the trigger. It's not always like this, but pretty damn too often.

Ok, now I know what work on /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[patrick dicaprio]

with myself i know that i often make hasty decisions on little information. rather than sit and think about a hand for whatever reason i make a rash decision.

Pat

[citrus]

I feel keeping 100 buy ins handy at your given level.

This helps maintain consitent play and sleep after loosing 15 buy ins on a bad day.

I do this too /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

I'm somewhat slow thinker, and I'm stupidly compensating it with fast "intuition moves". ..and then watching the stack going away.

[Gramps]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm really interested in what separates a very good 215er from a good 109er.

[/ QUOTE ]

Learning to play very good pushbot bubble SNG poker is much easier than learning how to effectively combat bubble pushbotters (as much as one can).

Those who watch their opponents' play, can figure out how they think/react in certain situations, and make the proper adjustments will be the best SNG players in the long run, regardless of what the "standard player characteristics" are of their opponents.

Those who get stuck in certain "formula" will face more of a struggle in the long run, as "standard player characteristics" are always in flux (to some degree or other).

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think yugo's pointing out curtain's isn't a "great" 215er... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GtrHtr]

I agree with almost everything thats been posted thus far. Hard work, understanding bubble play, mastering bubble play, more hard work and playing all contribute.

There is an aspect of luck involved as well, particularly when you consider the 800 chip games on Party. That aspect of luck may and probably is small, but it can certainly seperate a player with a good win rate from a player with a great winrate, even over 1000s of games.

[citanul]

so how many people who have here determined reasons they're not better are actually going to go out and carpe diem this [censored] and fix it?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I will CRUSH all those who think I'm weak-tight. that's so dumb. I hate you. I hate you all. so like, drapes is doing laundry right now. you all know I can't do it because I hate doing laundry and gave up my World Champ laundry belt to Yugo some time back. See, because she's doing my laundry right now I can't vent to her about how all these online idiots think I'm weak-tight. THE OUTRAGE....ridiculous. I can't believe it.


[/ QUOTE ]

- something else curtains might say

Yugoslav

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my so far limited experience, this is also the case in the $109s..

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
The general theme of this post reminds me of a poster that a teacher of mine in high school had:

Many have the will to succeed, but far fewer have the willingness to do what it takes to succeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Also, going from breakeven at the 11s to a medium winner at the 109s is similar to going from there to a significant 215s winner.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't curtains do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

hows he runnin lately? holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes saying that curtains is a very good player and winner at the 215s. im not saying its not possible to do well, but he would do better if he opened up his early game, and he knows it. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are people that play perfect sng poker. holla

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are people that play perfect sng poker. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Insert picture of the owl saying "O RLY?".

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have ALL the titles, glory, and ALL the mobney.

[microbet]

Someone hit curtains up on AIM and tell him Yugo said he sucks.

Too many time I assume that a pf raiser, on a ragged flop, has overcards only. I need to stop assuming that they are just making continuation bets or betting a draw each time.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
so how many people who have here determined reasons they're not better are actually going to go out and carpe diem this [censored] and fix it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i just dont have enough time. i can post on 2+2 a bit while i study... i cant really play poker while studying. it requires too much attention.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are people that play perfect sng poker. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I disagree with this, depending on how strongly you mean 'perfect' to be.

[SlackerMcFly]

I play for appliances.

Since we now need a new dryer (old one caught fire today) and the garage door opener is hosed, I can't think about getting better until those things are fixed.

So, my preference is to choose a level/table that will provide me with the income I need based on the current household crisis.

Currently, I am working over a "Son needs new shoes" tourney having already covered the cost of a dryer and a garage door opener earlier today.

If only we absolutely HAD TO HAVE something expensive..... Maybe I would get better and move up then.

WhackaMcSlack

I think two things that hold me back are 1) making very dumb plays twice or so per four table (lack if focus) 2) Hitting "call" without always thinking it through long enough

[Shilly]

[ QUOTE ]
As a 2nd question mostly for lower limit players, if you're beating the 22s, why aren't you playing the 33s? Assume that bankroll considerations aren't a factor, unless it's too psychologically stressful to lose at the higher limit. Why do you play at the level you're at?

[/ QUOTE ]

This part definitely applies to me. It's not that I don't have a big enough bankroll to play higher (I play the $22s with about 500 buy-ins), it's that I don't want to give up such a good thing. I want to improve (and I feel that I am still improving every day), but I'm just way too comfortable at the 22s. I feel (illogically) that if I move up something terrible is going to happen to me and I'll somehow lose the feeling of comfort when I'm playing.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I play for appliances.

Since we now need a new dryer (old one caught fire today) and the garage door opener is hosed, I can't think about getting better until those things are fixed.

So, my preference is to choose a level/table that will provide me with the income I need based on the current household crisis.

Currently, I am working over a "Son needs new shoes" tourney having already covered the cost of a dryer and a garage door opener earlier today.

If only we absolutely HAD TO HAVE something expensive..... Maybe I would get better and move up then.

WhackaMcSlack

[/ QUOTE ]

wow...I just died a little inside. This is what I have to look forward to...thanks slacka, Ill keep working on my game! yikes /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

I have ALL the titles, glory, and ALL the mobney.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me the mobney /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

People in this thread are overrating the learned part of poker IMO. Poker success is a combination of study and natural talent. My weakness, as is many people's, is that I'm not an extreemly gifted poker player. No amount of study would make me the absolute best player at this game, I just wasn't born with it. This is true of many good players, but few are capable of realizing it.

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
wow...I just died a little inside. This is what I have to look forward to...thanks slacka, Ill keep working on my game! yikes

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah! Think about the weed-eater that you cost me with your spite call last night. Sleep well! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

BarefootSonMcSlack

[IHateKeithSmart]

[ QUOTE ]
My weakness, as is many people's, is that is not being an extreemly gifted poker player. No amount of study would make me the absolute best player at this game, I just wasn't born with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely true. I realized this awhile ago thankfully. I still try and get better, but I have too many other things vying for my time.

I have a realistic view of my skill, and since I know that I'm not good enough to play for $ that really means anything to me, I stick with lower limits and just have a good time. I like keeping poker as a hobby/entertainment.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow...I just died a little inside. This is what I have to look forward to...thanks slacka, Ill keep working on my game! yikes

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah! Think about the weed-eater that you cost me with your spite call last night. Sleep well! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

BarefootSonMcSlack

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...didnt I have a good hand?

tell son Im sorry...I have some hand me downs if he need em...

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mr_J]

Because I don't need to be better. 12-16 tabling $55s and $60 turbos is as far as it'll go for me. That said, I could improve on my pushing game a little bit more.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
People in this thread are overrating the learned part of poker IMO. Poker success is a combination of study and natural talent. My weakness, as is many people's, is that I'm not an extreemly gifted poker player. No amount of study would make me the absolute best player at this game, I just wasn't born with it. This is true of many good players, but few are capable of realizing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's usually farther you can go though. not saying that it's important for everyone to get there, but some people have lots more upside than they expose themselves to. most people who lack the ability to be great poker players lack the flexibility of thinking and creativity to do so. this can be worked at, but many are incapable of truly reaching it. it's ok to know you'll never be the best. if you're not going to push yourself to get better, and you're not making a huge pooh load of money, this is a fairly silly hobby.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
balls. the bigger yer balls, the better u do in poker. ok the diff between a great 109er that struggles in the 215s and a great 215er that pwns everything is pretty simple. PERFECT bubble play. and i mean perfect. no mistakes. not occasionally making a -ev shove, occasionally letting someone keep their bb when u dont wanna shove 23o, etc. perfect. perfect early game. this means not folding AQ from the bb on lvl 2 to a SINGLE raise to 90. this means being able to play a flop, turn, and river well. this means implementing cash game strategies to gain chips in the early stages of the stt. thats really all there is to it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are people that play perfect sng poker. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong. the only way to play perfectly is to know your opps hole cards every single hand. it doesn't happen. you are 100% incorrect.

[johnnybeef]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have a tendency to play too loosely when I have gone through a prolonged streak of bad variance. This in turn puts my game into a tail spin for a few weeks and kills my earn. I used to blame it off on bad luck, but the more and more hhs that I look over, and have others look at, the more I realize that I have a tilting problem.

Hi. My name is Johnny and I have been tilt free for 10 days.

I'd guess for most people, it's time. I'm under the assumption that the best players (or best in any field) spend 24/7 doing poker. Talent is probably a bigger factor, but one you can't control.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd guess for most people, it's time. I'm under the assumption that the best players (or best in any field) spend 24/7 doing poker. Talent is probably a bigger factor, but one you can't control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, the more I play, the more I autopilot. When I autopilot for a few days in a row, I don't notice the leaks that have sprung. There really needs to be a balance between time playing, time thinking about, and time away from the game. The emotional side of poker is even more important than the theoretical side. Any yahoo can read Theory of Poker, but it takes a special person to realize when he is playing badly.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

wrong. the only way to play perfectly is to know your opps hole cards every single hand. it doesn't happen. you are 100% incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it depends on how you define perfectly, obviously. If you knew the ranges of hands that everybody would make certain actions with exactly, then you could play perfectly with that level of information, for example. I do agree with your general point that there aren't perfect poker players, though, simply because it's a really nebulous concept. How well you do and how well you play really depends heavily on who you match up against. To get enough information about these players to allow "perfect" play would take an unrealistically large number of hands; to be sure, much information can be gleaned from fewer, but perfect is a pretty lofty standard.

Back to the original topic: there are many ways that I could improve. Poker has been recreational for me, and as such I've enjoyed some pretty execrable bankroll management ($30 rebuys several nights in a row was perhaps not the strongest of plans) and occasionally poor game selection. I'm working on improving the first. I also tend to fall into fancy play syndrome and enjoy playing lots of hands. This isn't too bad until either a) I decide I should win more of them, or b) I think that the average player I'm up against is making huge adjustments to me and consequently I end up making incredibly boneheaded calls. I like calling.

[bestcellar]

I'm not better because every time I think I have this game figured out I embark on the coldest streak in human history

[ QUOTE ]
There really needs to be a balance between time playing, time thinking about, and time away from the game.

[/ QUOTE ]Use of time is very important also. Either way, generally worse players don't spend as much time as those who are better.

[ QUOTE ]
Any yahoo can read Theory of Poker, but it takes a special person to realize when he is playing badly.

[/ QUOTE ] That'd fall under talent.

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
Any yahoo can read Theory of Poker, but it takes a special person to realize when he is playing <font color="red">at the top of his game and capitalize on that knowledge.
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Big Limpin']

WHy am i not better?

I think the neurons in my brain have grown in a specific orientation based on my expieriences in poker over several years. I'm probably 90% perfect. But those neural pathways are used over and over again, getting solidified every time. For me to improve requires only small adjustments (nothing groundbreaking left to learn), so its difficult for the brain to use the shoulder of the 4 lane highway thats its constructed. I can "learn" some improvement, and at the time i "get it", but when in a game, and that situation arises, the default play (the one i've been making for years) seems "right" again, my brain goes " you play this hand this way, always have, and you win $, so just to that". Or something. Upon rereading, this post doesnt convey exactly what i meant, but i'm not sure i can descibe better.
Old dog...new tricks.

[Big Limpin']

This is better:

Its very difficult to make small changes to something you have done many many times. Takes alot of work (to burn it in), and i havent been making a strong enough effort to do that.

Really, im not better becasue im lazy.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm really interested in what separates a very good 215er from a good 109er. What separates you from a winning player at a higher level, or what separates you from a winning player at a lower level?

[/ QUOTE ]

Adaptability.

Easy to say. Hard to do well.

Irieguy

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I'm really interested in what separates a very good 215er from a good 109er. What separates you from a winning player at a higher level, or what separates you from a winning player at a lower level?

[/ QUOTE ]

Adaptability.

Easy to say. Hard to do well.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that we have a winner.

Going back to my earlier post, I think that this is a very hard skill to teach.

Oh, and for the record, thank you Cit, I think that you're dead on.

[Cactus Jack]

Interesting thread. I was reading a thread yesterday by Major Kong, Mason Malmuth. He said micro-limit players don't crush small stakes games because they fold too much. A long thread in which confusion reigned. The advice appeared to be conflicting with the usual advice, but it showed up the conflicts that have to be sorted out in every poker player's mind. There are many.

Talent, sure, but isn't that pretty hard to define? What exactly is poker talent? Like porn, you know it when you see it? Probably. A person who has poker talent must be coldly calculating yet warm to the emotions of other people. He or she must be conservative, yet fearless. Love money, and care nothing at all about it. Want to win it and able to absorb losing it. The ability to play a gambling game with skill. That's an unusual package, to be sure.

First, you learn the basics. Then, you learn a little more and a little more, then learn what you didn't learn the first hundred times through. At some point, experience becomes more important. Some would say you have to have instinct. That's knowledge plus experience plus an intangible that some may say is talent. You also have to be absolutely fearless. And have a disregard for money. You have to want money, lots of money, but then not care at all about it. One of the many paradoxes.

Math is important, but more important than people skills? At $1/$2 limit, yes. At $109 SNGs? I'm not so sure.

Memory? You better have a damn good one. And the ability to forget.

Poker is a delicate balancing act. Maturity vs. youthful energy. Math skills and people skills. Desire vs. talent. Few can successfully maintain the balance. Probably somewhat like playing perfectly. Imperfect people playing with imperfect information. The player who makes the fewest mistakes while playing the most boldly wins. To be the best, you have to have a weird concoction of attributes that I'm not sure there's very many people in the world who have it. Like a novelist who must be extremely extroverted, yet able to spend hour after hour alone in a room. Rare is the person who has both of these abilities. I'd say the person who has all the conflicting qualities helpful (necessary?) to being a great poker player is even rarer.

Great poker players are probably the strangest people in the world who are fortunate to find something that fits their rather unusual set of abilities. Many, I think, find they are not as well equipped for anything else.

It takes a helluva person to play a helluva game. Everything else comes below it, esp stakes level. Play well at whatever level your bankroll allows, and the money takes care of itself.

If it's confusing, then I made the point. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

CJ

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

When I am learning something new, it takes me a while to understand why a certain action is right in some instances and wrong in other instances. When I learned correct bubble play (probably not perfect by Raptor's standards) I understood that I needed to push and not be scared... but push 23o from sb... this did not come to me right away even though everone said push any two... and I pushed A7s from utg... but did not understand how important position was relative to hand strength. I am just finishing HOH v1 and I am once again all screwed up trying to apply some of his advice... not fully understanding all of the variables that make a certain action correct in one situation and wrong in another situation...

[citanul]

just want to jump in here on the subject of crushing the 200s:

1) while i agree with raptor mostly, i don't do so entirely
2) i believe you can do very well (though perhaps not be the best player in the game) by playing well in the late game and implementing "good cash game strategy" in the early game
3) i think that a fairly straightforward approach to the early game can also be quite viable
4) playing well post flop is vastly more important than playing tons of hands preflop
5) i think that people misunderstand (possibly even including raptor) what perfect late game play is. it is often the most "adjusting to your opponents" heavy part of the game. many 200s tables (though not as many lately) don't have donks willing to dough-nate with 3rd pair on level 1, so just the straightout "lay into the donks" doesn't do that well for adjusting play concerns. instead, knowing when you're at a table where pushing every +ev push is right, and when you're at one where they'll bust themselves, and other such concerns, is very important. it is in spots like this where raw ICM fails you, and being a good player of these games wins out.

there's more i'm sure, but meh.

c

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
i think that people misunderstand (possibly even including raptor) what perfect late game play is.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know exactly what it is. beaing able to look into your opponents soul. knowing the exact range of hands he will call with in a given situation. knowing the exact range he will shove with in a given situation. knowing who will fold to a min raise. knowing who will shove over every min raise. etc. holla

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting thread. I was reading a thread yesterday by Major Kong, Mason Malmuth.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, Major Kong is Ed Miller's old posting name.

[citanul]

well, yeah, those things are good.

small things that many people overlook include (as mentioned previously):

knowing when your table requires you to do those things that you mentioned -

if your table is likely to give you a walk in to the money within the next 3 hands, there's not much reason to go around making slightly +ev pushes, even if you know exactly what they're calling with and that they're +ev. for instance.

c

[freemoney]

all forms of poker are information games, since you cant see other persons cards, it is a game of incomplete information. the ability to gain as much information as possible with every decision while giving up as little information as possible is the goal. each decision made by your opposition is done for a reason, to understand their motives and playing good poker rather than good sng poker is very oftenly overlooked. marginal decisions that have more complexities than the icm can calculate are really overrated, i have never looked at icm or sng power tools, to have an understanding of these applications is important but beyond that not so much.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
well, yeah, those things are good.

small things that many people overlook include (as mentioned previously):

knowing when your table requires you to do those things that you mentioned -

if your table is likely to give you a walk in to the money within the next 3 hands, there's not much reason to go around making slightly +ev pushes, even if you know exactly what they're calling with and that they're +ev. for instance.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

yea thats true as well. knowing who gives walks is supremely important. i used to sit to the right of tough guys that fold a lot. now i sit to the left of crappy guys that give me walks a lot. its much more worth it imo. holla

[tigerite]

And also metagame considerations rap. Like folding at 50/100 because you know the next time you're in sb and he's in bb it's 75/150 or just towards the end of 50/100, and the blinds will be much more important to you then; so you fold to give the impression your range will be tighter the next time.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
And also metagame considerations rap. Like folding at 50/100 because you know the next time you're in sb and he's in bb it's 75/150 or just towards the end of 50/100, and the blinds will be much more important to you then; so you fold to give the impression your range will be tighter the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

this subject has been fairly beaten to death. and mostly debunked.

the concensus was basically yeah, i'd fold a spot where i had some reasonable stealing equity at level 1 in order to get equity at 50/100 and such, if i thought that that actually would effect the way people looked at my play. but passing on a steal at blinds 50/100 + when you should be stealing sb v bb is impossibly stupid.

c

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting thread. I was reading a thread yesterday by Major Kong, Mason Malmuth.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, Major Kong is Ed Miller's old posting name.

[/ QUOTE ]

I blew it. Got up way too early and the brain still isn't firing on all cylinders. It was Ed. Doh!

Thanks for the correction.

CJ

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
And also metagame considerations rap. Like folding at 50/100 because you know the next time you're in sb and he's in bb it's 75/150 or just towards the end of 50/100, and the blinds will be much more important to you then; so you fold to give the impression your range will be tighter the next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont do this as much anymore. i limp and make it 250 a lot when i have around 1k chips on lvl 4. i dont shove as much as is probably +ev. also, i find that being maniacal gets you more walks. sometimes ill make a loose call early so they steal less from me late. its really good to do if u have decent odds and it wont take up more than half yer stack. holla

[lacky]

I don't think there is a difference between a very good 109er or a good 215er. I would say the difference between a great player and a good player is probably consistance. In my own play, sometimes I'm dead on, and other times I make plays so stupid it leaves me stunned (most likely on days i forgot to take my meds). I think the long term highest performers don't have meny "off" days.

[FlyWf]

Not to take anyone's place, but I don't think that was what citunal was saying. If that _was_ what he was saying, then pretend my post starts.... HERE: Seat selection is, at it's heart, just regular poker skill. It can be reduced to a formula(sit left of X, right of Y, etc.) and explained in under a paragraph.

There are times to pass up +$EV pushes if you believe that other players will make greater +$EV actions after you(by pushing into each other). If there is a smaller stack acting after you who you believe will push and you also believe that push will get called, it would become correct to pass up significantly +$EV pushes. This requires some idea of how 2 3rd parties regard each other.

[citanul]

you seem to understand what my point was, yes.

it boils down to something htat many "ok" sng players don't understand at all, which is that often in poker there are lots of other things to consider besides just your decisions and what is thing you can do with your cards that is best. man, i worded that badly, but you know what i mean.

c

[KennyBanya]

As for Bones 2nd question, I am still pounding away at the 22s because after 1200 I am only beating them at 12% ROI. At this rate I am barely making more per hour at the 22s then I did at the 11s. I feel like I need to improve.

As for why I am not better, there are numerous answers, I m losing chips overall with small to medium pairs, and I am working on adjusting how I play them. I watch tv, and surf the web while I 4 table. I lose money from the SB and BB and am struggling with how to play them better. I really need to study ICM and play around and study SNGPT to really hone in my pushbotting.

As for Raptor saying anyone can play perfect SNG poker, it is impossible for a human being to pull off. This includes Phil Ivey or whatever "poker god" you want to select. I guarantee even Raptor will either misclick, time out or make a poor decision in the next 200 SNG's he plays, let alone playing them perfect over the next billion he plays.

Peace,

KennyBanya

[Uncle Wiggly]

[ QUOTE ]
The player who makes the fewest mistakes while playing the most boldly wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
As for Raptor saying anyone can play perfect SNG poker, it is impossible for a human being to pull off. This includes Phil Ivey or whatever "poker god" you want to select. I guarantee even Raptor will either misclick, time out or make a poor decision in the next 200 SNG's he plays, let alone playing them perfect over the next billion he plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not impossible to make ONLY +EV pushes on the bubble. over my next 200, i guarantee i wont make any -ev pushes. i didnt mean it in a way that oh you have to never make a mistake never lose a pot kinda way, never run KK into AA, never lose ah nad, and win every tournament. yer right. thats impossible. its however, not impossible, to think for 2 seconds before clicking so you dont misclick, and to understand bubble concepts so well that you dont make mistakes. holla

[KennyBanya]

its not impossible to make ONLY +EV pushes on the bubble. over my next 200, i guarantee i wont make any -ev pushes. i didnt mean it in a way that oh you have to never make a mistake never lose a pot kinda way, never run KK into AA, never lose ah nad, and win every tournament. yer right. thats impossible. its however, not impossible, to think for 2 seconds before clicking so you dont misclick, and to understand bubble concepts so well that you dont make mistakes. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont mean it a never losing a pot kind of way either. I consider pushing KK with 5 BBs left from the button playing perfect poker even if you run into AA.

Wouldnt you have to have almost exact calling ranges for multiple opponents to never make a -ev push? To me, that seems impossible in a game of incomplete information.

Even during bubble play, you have 1 to 3 opponents to figure out. We often are facing opponents for the first time in a given tournament as well.

"Perfect" is such an absolute term. Absolutes are rare in making poker decisions, even for SNG bubble play.

I have no doubt you play well and far better than I do. I have even less doubt you dont play perfect.

Peace,

KennyBanya

[Postiga]

[ QUOTE ]
People in this thread are overrating the learned part of poker IMO. Poker success is a combination of study and natural talent. My weakness, as is many people's, is that I'm not an extreemly gifted poker player. No amount of study would make me the absolute best player at this game, I just wasn't born with it. This is true of many good players, but few are capable of realizing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't you read super system? Doyle considered himself a slightly above average player before a cancer scare, but afterwards he was suddenly a world class player. The brush with death triggered his abilities. He didn't come out of the womb a great player.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't you read super system? Doyle considered himself a slightly above average player before a cancer scare, but afterwards he was suddenly a world class player. The brush with death triggered his abilities. He didn't come out of the womb a great player.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this sense, it's the same thing. The "greatness" was triggered by something that wasn't a conscious learning process.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Focus
Discipline
Empathy

Not necessarily in that order.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not really sure what these mean, unfortunately.

&gt;&gt;&gt;ZIPPPY

What I am working on, and what I believe is keeping me from being a better player...is my wandering mind. I am working on eliminating distractions and staying better focused. I tend to want to multitask, even with multiple tables open. Have a great night! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[pergesu]

Poker is a craft, and like any craft, the craftsmen have a set of tools they use to achieve goals they want. How they use these tools is what separates the masters from the journeymen.

A woodworker will use a couple saws, a hammer, a level, etc when creating his works. There are certain basic skills that he must master in order to effectively use these tools. As the years go by, the tools begin to wear to his personal usage, and eventually they're no longer standard tools of the trade - they're his tools, and his tools alone. If he uses a different set of tools, he won't be able to create pieces as elegant as he can with his own tools. Likewise, another craftsmen could not start using these tools and create as well as he could with his own.

In poker, the vast majority of our toolset is concepts - pot odds analysis, ICM, psychological concepts, etc. You must master the basic concepts if you want to become a top player. There's no way around that. Beyond that, you must integrate them effectively and use them in your own fashion such that they become your own. Poker textbooks refer to this as style - LAG, TAG, weak-tight. This is true to a degree, but only as much as you can say that a master craftsman has a different style than his apprentice. Of course this is true, but I would say that describing "style" doesn't encompass the enormous differences between craftsmen.

I believe there are three major elements in mastering this game. First, you must have a faultless command of the basic tools of the trade. Too many players acquire a superficial understanding of the most important concepts. A game based on superficial knowledge is a hollow game. An obvious example is the abundance of "ICM questions," in which someone will basically say "ICM told me to do this" and eastbay begins to convulse. If these players do not have a thorough understanding of the basis of ICM, they will be unable to draw upon their knowledge in many situations, and be forever relegated to asking stupid questions post mortem.

Once you have total knowledge of the basic skills, you must allow them to develop into customized tools - let the handle mold to your hand, so to speak. I would be incredibly surprised to find that Irie, Unarmed, eastbay, curtains, adanthar, Newt, Raptor or any of the other guys use ICM in the exact same fashion - and this concept is based heavily on math. If such a math-oriented tool can be used in varying ways among top players, consider how differently they would utilize more psychological, people-oriented tools.

Lastly, I think you need to continually add to your toolkit. Other players are always submitting new ideas for peer review. The top players actively seek out those ideas, and develop their own, getting feedback from other top players.

Incorporate into your skill-set.
Master the new skill.
Personalize the skill.

Finally, I would say that to become a true master, you must have a genuine love for the game. In all forms of art, the masters' dedication and love show through. At the most basic level, poker is a science, but at the highest levels it is very much an art.

[microbet]

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for Raptor saying anyone can play perfect SNG poker, it is impossible for a human being to pull off. This includes Phil Ivey or whatever "poker god" you want to select. I guarantee even Raptor will either misclick, time out or make a poor decision in the next 200 SNG's he plays, let alone playing them perfect over the next billion he plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not impossible to make ONLY +EV pushes on the bubble. over my next 200, i guarantee i wont make any -ev pushes. i didnt mean it in a way that oh you have to never make a mistake never lose a pot kinda way, never run KK into AA, never lose ah nad, and win every tournament. yer right. thats impossible. its however, not impossible, to think for 2 seconds before clicking so you dont misclick, and to understand bubble concepts so well that you dont make mistakes. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Raptor, you say you can *always* say what are +EV pushes and what are not. Even when it's close, I presume. How did you get to this point? Did you use SNG PT until you knew everything, or did you make the calculations yourself, or... And how long did it take you?

Also, do you ever not push a +EV push when you expect there will be +EV'er situations later? Some people are talking about it, but if you don't, I'd feel safe not doing it either. /images/graemlins/grin.gif EDIT: I just read that you do just that sometimes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW, I just called party to validate my new account. I hate talking on the phone, and English is not my native language... horrible. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for Raptor saying anyone can play perfect SNG poker, it is impossible for a human being to pull off. This includes Phil Ivey or whatever "poker god" you want to select. I guarantee even Raptor will either misclick, time out or make a poor decision in the next 200 SNG's he plays, let alone playing them perfect over the next billion he plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not impossible to make ONLY +EV pushes on the bubble. over my next 200, i guarantee i wont make any -ev pushes. i didnt mean it in a way that oh you have to never make a mistake never lose a pot kinda way, never run KK into AA, never lose ah nad, and win every tournament. yer right. thats impossible. its however, not impossible, to think for 2 seconds before clicking so you dont misclick, and to understand bubble concepts so well that you dont make mistakes. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Raptor, you say you can *always* say what are +EV pushes and what are not. Even when it's close, I presume. How did you get to this point? Did you use SNG PT until you knew everything, or did you make the calculations yourself, or... And how long did it take you?

Also, do you ever not push a +EV push when you expect there will be +EV'er situations later? Some people are talking about it, but if you don't, I'd feel safe not doing it either. /images/graemlins/grin.gif EDIT: I just read that you do just that sometimes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW, I just called party to validate my new account. I hate talking on the phone, and English is not my native language... horrible. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My sarcasm meter isn't very good. Are you making fun of Raptor?

Nope sorry. It's early in the morning here. /images/graemlins/blush.gif I'd just like to know how he got to where he is now...

[raptor517]

trial and error. play enough you know what they call with. who pushes what. who calls with what. situations. when you can push 23o as a pure steal. when you need to call with AJs on the bubble. when you need to fold it. mess with sngpt to confirm what you have learned. i havent used that proggy in a while. i will occasionally run 15 tournaments through it to make sure im still up to par. i will pass on some +ev situatoins. in fact ill pass on a lot of them if i think i can find a more +ev spot later. thats all. im tired. jokes on me if everyones being sarcastic, im not. holla

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

no one in the world plays perfect poker. no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have ALL the titles, glory, and ALL the mobney.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame you don't have a spellchecker....
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Shame you don't have a spellchecker....

[/ QUOTE ]

The great thing about Hellmuth/Fillmaff humor is that it's completely lost on most, yet incredibly funny to a few.

[HesseJam]

Excellent thread, bones!

I still enjoy getting better every month.

- I know that I have to 100%ify my bubble play which I estimate to be at 80% only. I'm saying for weeks that I have to study more with SnGAnalyzer (or at all) but my time is limited and when I have time for poker I want to play!

- I estimate my substandard move %age at about 10%. Should be easy to get this down to 3%. But I am not actively doing something to achieve this.

- I estimate my donk move %age at 3% and it should be easy to get it down to .5% (1 donk move per any 200 hands). But I am not actively doing something to achieve this.

- I need to focus more on the tables to get reads. I am maybe more observant than most of my foes (no music, no tv while playing) but when I start 4 tables I am not watching closely the first two levels. Too many players on the screen for me. I start watching when the first 1.5 to 2 players dropped out per table.

- My biggest progress in the last 2 weeks is this: When I feel the urge to gambool on a big hand but at the same time have some lingering doubt about it - being it a read or a voice in my head - that I stop, think and try to make the best decision that I can. Before, when in doubt I just pushed or called. I feel that alone has given me a 10% ROI boost.

- The biggest distraction I have is to watch when I'm racing. It's good to note my opponents cards to see whether I made the right decision but I still tend to watch the flop, turn and river to tally my luck ratio (opponent calls my pair with a weak Ace and I watch if he gets it). That has got to stop!

So much to do, so little time...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Shame you don't have a spellchecker....
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahha what a jopke

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

- I need to focus more on the tables to get reads. I am maybe more observant than most of my foes (no music, no tv while playing) but when I start 4 tables I am not watching closely the first two levels. Too many players on the screen for me. I start watching when the first 1.5 to 2 players dropped out per table.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I still haven't upped my table count, I can't resist AIMing ppl while I play.

[ QUOTE ]
- The biggest distraction I have is to watch when I'm racing. It's good to note my opponents cards to see whether I made the right decision but I still tend to watch the flop, turn and river to tally my luck ratio (opponent calls my pair with a weak Ace and I watch if he gets it). That has got to stop!


[/ QUOTE ]

I find that when I started doing this it helped me with tilt control, also.

[ QUOTE ]

- I know that I have to 100%ify my bubble play which I estimate to be at 80% only. I'm saying for weeks that I have to study more with SnGAnalyzer (or at all) but my time is limited and when I have time for poker I want to play!

- I estimate my substandard move %age at about 10%. Should be easy to get this down to 3%. But I am not actively doing something to achieve this.

- I estimate my donk move %age at 3% and it should be easy to get it down to .5% (1 donk move per any 200 hands). But I am not actively doing something to achieve this.

- I need to focus more on the tables to get reads. I am maybe more observant than most of my foes (no music, no tv while playing) but when I start 4 tables I am not watching closely the first two levels. Too many players on the screen for me. I start watching when the first 1.5 to 2 players dropped out per table.

- My biggest progress in the last 2 weeks is this: When I feel the urge to gambool on a big hand but at the same time have some lingering doubt about it - being it a read or a voice in my head - that I stop, think and try to make the best decision that I can. Before, when in doubt I just pushed or called. I feel that alone has given me a 10% ROI boost.

- The biggest distraction I have is to watch when I'm racing. It's good to note my opponents cards to see whether I made the right decision but I still tend to watch the flop, turn and river to tally my luck ratio (opponent calls my pair with a weak Ace and I watch if he gets it). That has got to stop!

So much to do, so little time...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm.. same for me! A way to make less donkish moves is simply by focusing better, I think. Yesterday I was way too tired to play, yet I did play, of course, and I pushed one time when there was one guy on the bubble who had only 1BB left. Someone called and I busted out. /images/graemlins/frown.gif That was 100% due to lack of focus. Combine that with 'verbalizing your thoughts' (which means actually thinking the hand through, with words, in stead of just doing. It's from Psychology of Poker), and I should do better.

BTW, I just read in an old thread that some of you guys only make notes on the good players, so you can select your tables better by avoiding them. But this way you don't have notes on the donks. Anyone use this way of table selection/making notes?

[microbet]

In the lower buyins, the games fill up too fast to really read the notes and decide where to sit or if to play at all. At the higher buyins you can wait a bit.

Whether or not just marking the good players is optimal for you depends on what your objectives are. If you are trying to improve and move up, I'd suggest taking a lot of notes and trying to use them. It is another skill that needs practice.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes saying that curtains is a very good player and winner at the 215s. im not saying its not possible to do well, but he would do better if he opened up his early game, and he knows it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that I would do better if I opened up my game early.

[ QUOTE ]
9-5 + wife

[/ QUOTE ]
9-5 + grad school + needy girlfriend

[tewall]

<font color="white">nt</font>

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes saying that curtains is a very good player and winner at the 215s. im not saying its not possible to do well, but he would do better if he opened up his early game, and he knows it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that I would do better if I opened up my game early.

[/ QUOTE ]

there is no doubt in my mind you would have a higher return if you opened up your early game. zero doubt. none. try it for 100 sngs and see what you think of it. holla

[curtains]

My ROI is higher than anyone's I've ever seen. My sample size still isnt high enough yet, but until it goes down I don't see any reason to change my gameplan.

[citanul]

i have a great sized penis

no way dude, it could be an inch more, no problem

i have a great big penis

citanul

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your point?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's merely pointing out that curtains is weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes saying that curtains is a very good player and winner at the 215s. im not saying its not possible to do well, but he would do better if he opened up his early game, and he knows it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that I would do better if I opened up my game early.

[/ QUOTE ]

there is no doubt in my mind you would have a higher return if you opened up your early game. zero doubt. none. try it for 100 sngs and see what you think of it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Curtains style works for him, why would he try to change it?

[ QUOTE ]
My ROI is higher than anyone's I've ever seen. My sample size still isnt high enough yet, but until it goes down I don't see any reason to change my gameplan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you coach players? I'll pay you as much as you want (i'm not rich though) /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[curtains]

Don't ask for lessons just because someone claims to have a high ROI /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't ask for lessons just because someone claims to have a high ROI /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

that was actually "Lesson 1"...and yes, Curtains accepts Neteller.