Dark checkraised w/KK -- 5handed 20/40 at the Muckleshoot

[bobdibble]

Villain can be tough at times. In case anyone knows him, his name is Lee and he typically plays 30/60 with 50/100 overs at the Muck and I believe he plays 100/200+ at the Commerce. He's a ~50 year old black dude and usually wears a Berkeley t-shirt or sweatshirt.

I've only played with him twice, but here is my read... He defends his BB more than half the time, both short handed and full. He can be somewhat loose pre-flop when in position, or when completing/defending the blinds. He is tight in multiway pots post flop, but will call down with second pair, decent kicker when HU. He will get agressive on the flop with top pair, no-kicker. I don't know how he plays drawing hands when short handed.

On with the hand...

The game is 5 handed and just converted from 30/60 to 20/40 to try to pick up new players. This is my first orbit.

I'm dealt black kings UTG+1 and I raise. Folded to villain in the BB who calls.

Flop: 942 with 2 spades.

Villain checkraises, I 3-bet, villain calls.

Turn: villain checks dark.... T of uninteresting suit

I bet, villain checkraises.... plan?

[Joe Tall]

I'm still on the gas here, he has A9, fck him.

[bobbyi]

I don't think I know the opponent.

What do you think about just calling his flop c/r and then eightyballing him on the turn? I take that line pretty often in spots like this against this sort of opponent in the muck 20 and like how it plays out (online, I am much more inclined to just three-bet the flop). I like the way it balances my play on the flop (since I could be calling a check-raise with either overcards or a big hand waiting to pop the turn) and on the turn (because if a blank hits and I raise, it's hard to tell if I slowplayed or if I am raising for a free s/d) and the line often wins the max against a draw here and against worse hands provided he isn't capable of folding to the turn raise, which a lot of people aren't.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about just calling his flop c/r and then eightyballing him on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I take that line against weak/passive players that will shutdown and go into call mode if I 3-bet the flop. Against an agressive, thinking player the smooth-call/raise-turn line screams monster and can let them get away from a marginal hand.

Of course, I'll still take the smooth-call/raise-turn line about 25% of the time with monsters against thinking opponents so that I can also take the same line for a free showdown. And in those cases, if they 3-bet the turn, I'll often just call the 3-bet with a monster and raise the river since a turn 3-bet tells them that I'm not making the free showdown play and allows them to fold.

(Fyi, I took the smooth-call/raise-turn HU with a set of jacks v.s. Barry Greenstein in one of the limit WSOP events and it allowed him to get away from a pair of aces w/bad kicker. (I emailed him after the event to find out what he folded.) In fact, he folded rather than putting in his last BB into the pot and decided to wait for a better spot pre-flop to put in that last BB. That sort of solidified for me how obvious that line is.)

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
That sort of solidified for me how obvious that line is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tangent...

That line is obvious to Barry Greenstein, but not to your average 20/40 player. Speaking of a set of jacks, I was playing 20/40 at Commerce last night and raised PF with JJ only to have the fish to my right weak lead into me on a flop of J75.

I smooth called and raised a 3 turn (part of the reason I did this was because we weren't heads up and I wanted overcalls from 3 other players in the hand; hoping they'd catch up to a hand only slightly worse than top set). He called the turn raise and check-called a 3 river.

When he called he said "I don't believe you," and after that I said, "full house." He goes, "Really?!!" and seemed shocked at my JJ. He turned to his friend who was sweating him and insulting him for giving me too much action. He told his friend that when I just called on the flop he assumed his hand was good, and that I was just making a move on the turn with AK.

So I think the line works good against the majority of mid-limit players. Against Barry, probably not.

[bobdibble]

Heh.. nice story.

There are passive donks in the Muck 20/40 game that I will take the smooth-call/raise-turn line against (i.e. the majority) but there are some that will see right through it. I put villain in the see right through it camp.

[W. Deranged]

Well, from what I understand, Barry Greenstein plays good...

The decision on whether to take this sort of "obvious" line is clearly player dependent. Some players are so paranoid of turn raise bluffs that they'll call down turn raises but get concerned if you give them action on the flop. PJ's story is a good illustration of how weirdly mid-limit players can read seemingly obvious things.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still on the gas here, he has A9, fck him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't this let a good player get away from a worse hand and jam us up with a better one? I think I would rather call the turn and raise the river.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
There are passive donks in the Muck 20/40 game that I will take the smooth-call/raise-turn line against (i.e. the majority) but there are some that will see right through it. I put villain in the see right through it camp.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can see that, but there are two reasons I still take the line reasonably often
1) If he has the flush draw, he is stuck calling the raise no matter how obvious it is that you have an overpair.
2) The kind of guy who is willing to lay down a decent pair to the turn raise might not pay off all the way if you three-bet the flop anyway. Similarly, if he has total air, you were going to lose him by three-betting the flop and betting the turn anyway, so you may make more money be playing rope-a-dope for a while and letting him bet the turn before revealing the strength of your hand.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't this let a good player get away from a worse hand and jam us up with a better one? I think I would rather call the turn and raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too often such a player realizes that A9 is no good anymore when you call the turn and they check/call the river. When you 3-bet the turn they still dont' fold as they feel too vested and often feel they are getting played back it.

[private joker]

Would he 3-bet TT preflop? If so, I like Joe's plan. If not, then I'd call down.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
Would he 3-bet TT preflop? If so, I like Joe's plan. If not, then I'd call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know at the time, and am still not sure. I did learn later in the session that he won't raise 99 HU from the BB.

If your are not sure of his pre-flop 3-bet standards, do follow Joe's plan, or call down?

[bobdibble]

I 3-bet and he caps... call down?

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


If your are not sure of his pre-flop 3-bet standards, do follow Joe's plan, or call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

In all honesty, I'd probably call down. I think 3-betting the turn here is, if anything, pushing a very very slight +EV edge, but also increasing variance. You'll always get capped by TT/99, and I think you have to fold or make it very expensive to call down. If he has T9, you have a few hidden outs against it. If he's running a complete bluff, calling allows him to bluff again on the river, while 3-betting will get him to fold immediately.

I like our hand, but since it's heads up I just don't see as much value in a turn 3-bet unless we can easily rule out TT.

[bobdibble]

That was sort of my thinking too.

I just called and raised when a K hit on the river.

I've posted a Next Action part of the thread though to see how Joe and others would respond to a cap.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still on the gas here, he has A9, fck him.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

I like Bobbyi's idea. That's the first thing I thought of. Yes, the guy may see through it, but I'll find out how he reacts rather than just assume how he will. If he folds, this could also open him up for turn semi bluffs.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet and he caps... call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bobbyi's line saves you 1/2 bet at this point.

b

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
I like Bobbyi's idea. That's the first thing I thought of. Yes, the guy may see through it, but I'll find out how he reacts rather than just assume how he will. If he folds, this could also open him up for turn semi bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point. I get maximum from this hand if he calls the power sequence, and if he folds I can use the info to maximize EV for the session.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet and he caps... call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bobbyi's line saves you 1/2 bet at this point.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya.. well, I didn't 3-bet the turn... I just wanted to explore the line.

(In actuality, I called and raised a rivered King. Villain later told me he had 99)

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, from what I understand, Barry Greenstein plays good...

The decision on whether to take this sort of "obvious" line is clearly player dependent. Some players are so paranoid of turn raise bluffs that they'll call down turn raises but get concerned if you give them action on the flop. PJ's story is a good illustration of how weirdly mid-limit players can read seemingly obvious things.

[/ QUOTE ]

People are paranoid of turn raise bluffs? Really? How do I identify these people? Are people calling these raises at mid limits because they think I'm bluffing? I assumed the people who call here are just the same loose players who need to showdown a hand. Is there really a difference between a person who calls down because he wants to showdown and one who calls down because he's paranoid of bluffs?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still on the gas here, he has A9, fck him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't this let a good player get away from a worse hand and jam us up with a better one? I think I would rather call the turn and raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are also benefits to showing no fear with a 1-pair hand on the turn against someone you play regularly. For this particular hand, which, out of these two big-street lines you choose depends more on what you feel is important.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet and he caps... call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I call down, fck him.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
(In actuality, I called and raised a rivered King. Villain later told me he had 99)

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folded the river, he lied.

[flawless_victory]

i dont even know where muckleshoot is, but im guessing this turn is closer to a fold than a threebet.. pretty shocked by all the advice in this thread.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(In actuality, I called and raised a rivered King. Villain later told me he had 99)

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folded the river, he lied.

[/ QUOTE ]
obviously, he didnt.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(In actuality, I called and raised a rivered King. Villain later told me he had 99)

[/ QUOTE ]

If he folded the river, he lied.

[/ QUOTE ]
obviously, he didnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

He never said the villian called his river raise, where is such obviousness?

[flawless_victory]

"Villain later told me he had 99"

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
"Villain later told me he had 99"

[/ QUOTE ]

What I said was that if he folded to the hero's river raise, he lied.

[flawless_victory]

dude, i understood what u said, that would just be a retarded lie... also it seems that OP implied he showed down the hand.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont even know where muckleshoot is, but im guessing this turn is closer to a fold than a threebet.. pretty shocked by all the advice in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forget that this hand is from a 5-handed game?

b

[bobdibble]

He called the raise and I showed my hand. He looked somewhat sickened.

A few hands later I heard him tell a friend of his that he flopped a set of 9s and I rivered a two outer. He said it quitely enough that it is highly unlikely that he thought I heard when he said it. (My hearing is far more sensative than most people's and people often don't think I can hear them.)

Later, after a seat change, I was sitting near him and I asked what he had that hand and he told me a set of 9s.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont even know where muckleshoot is

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the largest poker room in the Seattle area, ~20 tables or so.

And... it is where Ed Miller learned to play poker before moving to vegas to go pro.