Why do people call/re-raise preflop?

I have only experienced this a few times so far in my young poker career, and my first instinct is that it's a completely silly play. Since I've experienced it, I've noticed it come up in a few of the hands posted in here. I just can't understand why a thinking poker player would ever do this. I couldn't find anything about it in SSHE.

Can someone please enlighten me as to if this is ever actually +EV? Is there ever a situation where this play makes sense or is it pretty much just a boneheaded move?

[BoogerFace]

Actually, this is mentioned in SSHE in the preflop section. (I was reading this during lunch.)

Some people are afraid to raise monsters like AA in early position because they are afraid everyone behind might fold - or they are idiots who like to gambooool.

[SnglMaltScotch]

I have a very simple rule:

"Do not slow play preflop"!!!

It has served me well.

As for call/reraise, I don't think that it is +EV unless there is a maniac at the table that you know will raise.

I would imagine that people limp with monsters thinking that they're luring victims in, but once they realize that a few of their opponents like their hands, they figure it's time to spring to life. I've seen AA and KK played like this a few times, but I doubt anyone here will suggest that limping with those hands is advisable. Sometimes the limp/re-raise comes from a maniac with a weak hand who just likes brewing action. I believe I read somewhere in the SS forum that a limp/re-raise is a monster only 1/3 times, based on a player's large PT database.

For rational players, the only time I can see it is in a multiway pot in which the raise is for equity value. So I may limp with QJs UTG, but if there's a raise right behind me, and five cold calls including the blinds, I might as well raise it up to pull down a huge pot when I hit. So against a donk the limp/re-raise could mean anything, and against a thinking player it probably means a hand with high speculative value.

Edit: Found it. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=smallholdem&Number=320264 8&Searchpage=4&Main=3202648&Words=%2Blimp+%2Brerai se&topic=&Search=true#Post3202648)

[Abbaddabba]

There are a lot of really bad poker players out there.

Limp-raising, relative to many things they do, is fairly insignificant.

It's not good, but it's not terrible.

When you see people do this though, you can usually narrow their range of hands down. Especially if it's NL. If it's limit, people become erratic with strange things.

There is a time and a place for it, mind you. For example, if the table is loose, which justifies you open limping with a variety of hands including lowish suited broadways to low to mid pocket pairs (say, 7's or JQs)... if (for one reason or another) it gets folded ot the blinds and one of the blinds raises, you can justify 3betting.

[car ramrod]

The problem is that it's hard to tell. My experience is it is usually a really good hand that they were afraid to raise with as to not scare away people. Or it is someone who is mad b/c when they limp it gets raised on them, so they think, what the heck, I might as well raise again.

It is dependant on lots of things. Be on the look out for big hands. Also, look at who is doing it, is he low stacked? is he frustrated and running bad? Sometimes it is just out of frustation, sometimes it is a big hand.

[WalkAmongUs]

the only time I ever limp/reraise is when I have AA or KK on the button and its folded to me and the blinds are tight. I might call to lure one of them in if I can.

the only other time I do this is if I find myself in EP in a REALLY tight game with AA or KK where an EP raise almost always results in winning the blinds. Its fun to do in these games because you get to surprise TAGs who think they're smart by raising to get heads up with a limper. You then proceed to pwn them.

[Abbaddabba]

[ QUOTE ]
the only time I ever limp/reraise is when I have AA or KK on the button and its folded to me and the blinds are tight. I might call to lure one of them in if I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha. You're one of those douchebags?

That's the worst time you can conceivably limp with aces/kings. Just raise, for [censored] sake.

I cant help but laugh when people who do this bitch and moan when i make some retarded ass two pair from the blinds with a sub-marginal hand to take down their slowplayed overpair.

I personally never use this play, but a lot of people will LRR aces or kings in full ring when they are UTG or UTG+1 to trap. This only works at an aggressive table with lots of preflop raising, where you know you'll get a chance to 3-bet; in other words you have to be sure someone is going to raise so it's not just 1 bet to play preflop. The idea is to get limpers, then trap them into cold calling 2 more bets before the flop.

IMO this reasoning is stupid; if the table is alreayd laggin it up, you don't need to LRR to get action on a big hand. They'll cold call and 3-bet with the same hands they'll limp and raise with anyway.

Hope this clears up some confusion,
Steve

P.S. In my experience (aka small sample size) I have only seen people do this with AA or KK. I'd be on the lookout if I were you; this is where PT and a HUD come in handy.

I might do this from EP with a hand that plays especially well multi-way, like J-10s. So I limp in from EP but if it's back to me with a raise and five or six-handed I might re-raise. The idea is if you connect on the flop you could win a monster pot against something like A-A or K-K, and if you don't connect it's easy to get away from the hand.

On the Party .25/.50 tables slow playing Big Slick must have been in their join up literature because that seems to be the play of the last few days. Fortunately they just call with it even when it hits so the damage is minimal.

About the only time I'll limp/re-raise is when a donkey is rasing for the 3rd time this orbit and I want to isolate him. Other than that I'd rather raise a raising hand or steal hand than slow play it.

[cardcounter0]

You are at a table with a known raiser and a bunch of calling stations.

You get dealt AA in early postion.

You can raise and get a bunch of people in for 2 SBs.

Or you can limp, known raiser raises as usual, calling stations all call, and then you 3-bet. Now since they are in for 1 or 2 SBs already, calling stations all call.

Now you have a bunch of people in for 3 SBs instead of just 2 SBs.

[ QUOTE ]
I might do this from EP with a hand that plays especially well multi-way, like J-10s. So I limp in from EP but if it's back to me with a raise and five or six-handed I might re-raise. The idea is if you connect on the flop you could win a monster pot against something like A-A or K-K, and if you don't connect it's easy to get away from the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you could just call and save yourself a SB if you don't connect on the flop. You don't have an equity edge to push on the flop against 5 others, even with very liberal starting ranges:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 14.2147 % 12.99% 01.23% { JTs }
Hand 2: 17.2277 % 15.97% 01.25% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 17.1653 % 15.91% 01.25% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 4: 15.4399 % 14.38% 01.06% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 5: 15.4956 % 14.44% 01.06% { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 6: 20.4566 % 19.24% 01.21% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }

As we can see you have the least amount of equity even with JTs, assuming the first 2 players playing the top 20% starting hands, next 2 players with only top 30% hands, and the last player being a little more solid (AKA 2+2 TAG style) playing top 12% of hands.

That sim isn't exactly a precise scientific simulation but I think you get the idea.

Steve

I do understand the point about equity, and it is definitely not my usual MO to reraise with that sort of hand, but on certain tables I have found that reraising under the right conditions will lead many players to stay too long in the hand--they'll often stay for the turn and even the river drawing dead when I get a good flop.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]


Ha. You're one of those douchebags?

That's the worst time you can conceivably limp with aces/kings. Just raise, for [censored] sake.

I cant help but laugh when people who do this bitch and moan when i make some retarded ass two pair from the blinds with a sub-marginal hand to take down their slowplayed overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

this works just fine for me since I make much more than I would winning the blinds by doing this SOME of the time. Loosing once in a blue moon doesn't bother me. I don't whine. Winning the bigger pots more than makes up for the losing one pot.






douchebag

[ QUOTE ]
the only time I ever limp/reraise is when I have AA or KK on the button and its folded to me and the blinds are tight. I might call to lure one of them in if I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a good strategy aslong as the player that does this know when to fold his aces. Me on the other hand tries to always do the opposite. If it's folded to me on the button and I have KK/AA I always bet hoping for one of the blinds to take it as a cold steal and at these "low" limits I often get atleast one of the blinds to call me and when he hits one pair, he will think it's good.

Whatever works for you, aslong as you know when you are beat.

[Fryguy]

I've used this play like once or twice when I had 77 or 88 in early position and it comes back to me 2 bets with almost the entire table involved in the pot. I figured I might as well just pump the pot for the times I hit the set.

Whether it's right or not, I have no idea. But once or twice in tens of thousands of hands, it can't be that big of a mistake.

I think limping AA or KK is flat out wrong, no matter what situation.

[WalkAmongUs]

[ QUOTE ]

Thats a good strategy aslong as the player that does this know when to fold his aces. Me on the other hand tries to always do the opposite. If it's folded to me on the button and I have KK/AA I always bet hoping for one of the blinds to take it as a cold steal and at these "low" limits I often get atleast one of the blinds to call me and when he hits one pair, he will think it's good.

Whatever works for you, aslong as you know when you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you only should do this against tight-passive blinds is because the odds are overwhelming that they will fold. Against aggressive players I raise because then they will reraise me thinking I'm on a steal. I play them differently against different blinds. Why raise blinds who never defend? Its totally player dependent.

Oh, Oh, OOHHHH!

I can answer this one in 1 word:



BEER!

[SCfuji]

hey tarheel

its not as bad if they do it with a bunch of hands but its still bad.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the only time I ever limp/reraise is when I have AA or KK on the button and its folded to me and the blinds are tight. I might call to lure one of them in if I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha. You're one of those douchebags?

That's the worst time you can conceivably limp with aces/kings. Just raise, for [censored] sake.

I cant help but laugh when people who do this bitch and moan when i make some retarded ass two pair from the blinds with a sub-marginal hand to take down their slowplayed overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love that too. I was in a full ring game last week: UTG limps, and everyone folds to me in the BB. I check with K9o. Flop comes down 993. I check, he checks. Turn comes a 9. I bet, and it's capped on the turn, and capped on the river. He mucks, and I had a hearty belly-laugh when I saw in the hand history that he had AA.

[MrPowers]

MMMMmmmmmm Beeeeeerrrrrr /images/graemlins/grin.gif

MrPowers

[Agthorr]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally never use this play, but a lot of people will LRR aces or kings in full ring when they are UTG or UTG+1 to trap. This only works at an aggressive table with lots of preflop raising

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also a good play at a tight-weak table where raising from UTG or UTG+1 will often leave you heads-up with a tiny pot. 3 or 4 callers builds a bigger pot than 1 player calling a raise, especially since some of them will keep putting money in on later rounds. Sure, with more players they'll beat you more often, but that's okay since you'll get much more money when you do win. The equity with AA is large enough that it's a +EV play at this kind of table.

If someone happens to raise after me, then I'll happily reraise. The suckers in between have already put their money into the pot. If they call the reraise, fine, more money and I'm still the favorite. If they fold to the reraise, fine, the pot's big now and I'm happy to have fewer competitors.