Flop action?

[Joe Tall]

20/40 Foxwoods.

It's about 4AM and the short game I was in just broke. I'm headed to the front to check out and there is open seats in a 6-handed game where there are 3 players falling asleep at the table as they look as they were drinking. I sit down.

This is my 2nd hand at the table and I just showded down a monster out of the BB where I held K2o, flopped K23r, bet got raised, 2-cold call, I 3-bet, all call, turn: 2 and I bet every street and get called down by 2 players. The player to my left raised the flop when he held Kh6h that he limped UTG, he paid off and showed. He is now the BB in this hand:

4 limpers to me in the SB w/8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, the BB raises, all call, 6 to the flop for 11.8 SBs:

K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I... <font color="white"> donked </font>

[BarronVangorToth]

Check-raise the flop. Cap if he three-bets.

Lead from there on. Kick the dealer while thinking "no spades."

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[W. Deranged]

Sounds good by me...

I'm also three-betting the turn so long as it's not another spade. I might slow down too if the turn paired the board and I got raised, though I'd probably throw in a three-bet and call down a cap in that case against the majority of opponents.

If the turn is a non-spade and I three-bet and get capped, I'm bet-calling or check-calling the river depending on who my opponent is.

[bobdibble]

BB is the lag from the first hand, right? If so, my plan here is to lead and hope he raises to clear out someone holding the T or 9 of spades.

[Evan]

I like betting the flop. BB will raise a lot with the two broadway cards on the board and maybe some middlish spades will fold. You don't want to risk BB checking if he has something like AQ or TT cause getting it checked around sucks and having one of the LP guys bet first sucks (slightly less).

[gh9801]

Bet/threebet flop, keep putting in bets until the board or villains convince you to do otherwise

[BWebb]

Put me in the checkraise camp. I understand the flop bet/hope for a raise line to knock out some middling spades, but I don't think that is necessary in this hand. With the hand having 6 players to the flop, I think players are less likely to think their 9 or 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif is going to be enough to take this down. Also, with the K and J being on the board, there are only 2 cards we would want and hope to get rid of (the 9 and 10). If the flop were 7-6-2 of spades, it would be more important to try and force out middle spades because there would be more of them. Plus, if the BB is going to raise a flop bet, he'd probably be very likely to 3-bet a checkraise, which will also face the field with two bets.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
I think players are less likely to think their 9 or 10 is going to be enough to take this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking more of someone that had something like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif who would try to draw for an ace but could accidently hit a flush. (Not that they should be doing this, but I see it fairly often on boards like this.) Suppose the 4th spade comes on the river and the original flop bettor checks... the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif will probably check, but I'd be willing to bet that they will call if the only river bet comes from late position. I see people call with that kind of crap all the time if they hit a weak draw with their kicker.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think players are less likely to think their 9 or 10 is going to be enough to take this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking more of someone that had something like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif who would try to draw for an ace but could accidently hit a flush. (Not that they should be doing this, but I see it fairly often on boards like this.) Suppose the 4th spade comes on the river and the original flop bettor checks... the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif will probably check, but I'd be willing to bet that they will call if the only river bet comes from late position. I see people call with that kind of crap all the time if they hit a weak draw with their kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kind of implied in my post with the "hope to fold" comment but didn't say specifically is that the 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif is the third nut draw on that board. Some players won't fold that draw, especially if they have something like A-10 that adds a straight draw. I think there are players that will fold the 9 or 10 of /images/graemlins/spade.gif on that board because it was multiway. Also, there are players who will NOT fold 9-10 of /images/graemlins/spade.gif on that board because it is the 3rd nut draw. Basically, the chances that those cards are out plus the chances we make them fold with a bet/PF raiser raises line is worth less than the money we make by going for a checkraise. I hope that makes sense, I'm at work so I'm trying to type fast.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I like betting the flop. BB will raise a lot with the two broadway cards on the board and maybe some middlish spades will fold. You don't want to risk BB checking if he has something like AQ or TT cause getting it checked around sucks and having one of the LP guys bet first sucks (slightly less).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. In a live, East Coast mid-limit game, I think it's much more likely that a monotone flop gets checked around than online or West Coast players realize.

[Solami17]

You have to bet here!

[heykev]

I like to lead out and call here on flop and put in check raise on turn. If bb is willing to raise flop he is probably going to bet turn.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

Ditto. In a live, East Coast mid-limit game, I think it's much more likely that a monotone flop gets checked around than online or West Coast players realize.

[/ QUOTE ]


It may be more likely to get around in Foxwoods than at the Commerce - but with this many in there, at this specific game, with a raise from the BB, I don't see it getting checked around as, far more often than not, the BB is going to continuation bet ahoy when checked to, barring it being one of the very particular people who would shut down sans a spade / a big pair in their holding.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com
that was a sentence and a half

[sfer]

Well, there are other reasons. One, by betting into the likely raise you make your hand look like anything but a flush, and you increase the chances that a semibluff with the Ace of trump or a 1-pair hand gives you tons of action. Two, someone mentioned the possibility of folding the 9/T of the suit, which is quite good. Three, betting will let you 3-bet with the best hand much more often than checkraising will let you 4-bet with the best hand. Four, betting is fun.

[BarronVangorToth]

Agreed. There are lots of reasons to bet out. My answer is defaulting to what I'd do in the Joe Sixpack Foxwoods 20 game. There are times when I would certainly agree betting out is correct. Here, given the late night description, I think you're going for pure pot building and no-other-spade praying, hence the check-raise / 3-bet / cap.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Victor]

look left. if hes gonna bet, go for the cr. if you cant tell, just bet. you cant go wrong putting money in with the best hand.

[mike l.]

bet into the bb and hope he raises giving people the chance to fold hands with the Ts and 9s.

[mike l.]

"With the hand having 6 players to the flop, I think players are less likely to think their 9s or 10s is going to be enough to take this down."

so you think most 20-40 players are going to readily make that same analysis and commonly fold those cards on the flop for one bet (presumably from the bb)? think again.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
"With the hand having 6 players to the flop, I think players are less likely to think their 9s or 10s is going to be enough to take this down."

so you think most 20-40 players are going to readily make that same analysis and commonly fold those cards on the flop for one bet (presumably from the bb)? think again.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are definitely not going to fold for one bet, how sure can we be they will fold for two? (This is really a question, not a smart ass remark, for I don't normally play this high.)

My earlier post doesn't make much sense. I was posting at work and trying to hurry through it. I don't like a bet here because we are looking to fold only two cards, the 9 and 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, should they be out. The A and Q are obviously not going anywhere no matter if its one or two bets to them. The chances of this getting checked through are slim because:

1) We have a flop that very likely hit a preflop raising hand.

2) It's six handed.

3) It's monotone. This flop hit somebody and most people, good or bad, are aware enough to bet this flop if they hav e a top pair type hand for fear of the free card. I don't see how the strategy to bet the flop, which is counting on a raise from BB, can be supported with the idea that if we check it could get checked around. True, we are definitely getting money in if we bet, but most of the argument for leading out is for the BB to raise to protect our hand. Plus, I want to get the most money in this pot, not just some. I've never played in an East Coast 20/40 game, but I just don't see THIS flop getting checked through.

IMO, we flopped a monster. True, a bet out might get the 9-10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif to fold if BB raises. However, I think passing up on the opportunity to checkraise the field in order to try and get two cards to fold is giving up too much value.

as much as i love to check raise i think you have to bet and bet hard...to much chance of it being checked and another spade hitting. Worst case is you get raised or reraised and you lose one small bet (assuming you can get away from this) rather than the two bets you lose if you check raise and get reraised

[Joe Tall]

This is a absolute must flop bet and is exactly what I did as you can see from the white text in my OP.

UTG, sleepy and the button called:

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG and the button called.

River: 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

The button called and my hand was good and he flashed A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a absolute must flop bet and is exactly what I did as you can see from the white text in my OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see the white text.

I thought to myself: "If "I" slowplayed this flop, would Joe yell at me for it?". Then I answered my own question.

Glad to see you bet the flop, nh.

Joe